...how to solve a very first world (steel) bike problem...

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
nomm
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...how to solve a very first world (steel) bike problem...

Post by nomm »

Keeping this brief - I love a steel audax bike for long days out and V.light touring/camping duties (saddle, frame and bar bag) 5-10Kg weight

I currently own a Thorn Audax 853 (550S) - best fit I have ever had, great handling and v.little chance of toe clip. Perfect for 100+km ride, looks the biz, unique and seems to love a 5-10Kg luggage sweet spot

Previous to this I have had a 'The light blue' wolfson - fast, buttery as hell, not that comfy over anything above 75km, bit too long and sporty... maybe? Also any extra carrying weight impacted the ride quality.

Previous to this was a disk brake Jamis Reynolds 631 - slow, buttery, likes carrying 10+KG

My dilemma being the Thorn is a lot stiffer than the Wolfson - beautiful in its own ways and I can certainly seem to ride it 'till my legs fall off', but it is a lot less buttery than the Wolfson, thus picking up a lot more road buzz/bumps, seemingly impacting on fatigue levels 100KM+. I am not sure if this has a lot to do with very complicated debates about tube techology, purpose design, my weight etc etc or something else entirely

I am torn.... I love the Thorn and there is very little off the peg with similar geometry, 3 bottle cages, 853 (or equivalent) etc, calliper brakes with 28mm or more and full mudguard mounts... but the stiffness and lack of 'give' is frustrating maybe due to being a lighter rider. Some people love this eg Mason's Resolution tubing V Shand Skinny malinky https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle/british-steel-bikes

I have a one month window to use my cycle to work scheme... which is the green commute initiative, thus covers a huge range of potential frame/fork suppliers... Condor fratello (extra 250 for a third bottle cage!), skinny malinky (can't afford £2000!), SPA CYCLES Titanium Audax... :roll:

Thoughts?
Last edited by nomm on 7 Sep 2021, 7:41am, edited 2 times in total.
geocycle
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world bike problem...

Post by geocycle »

Tyres are the biggest difference on butteriness! I have a spa ti audax with carbon forks which is almost a different bike with 25mm tubed tyres at 80-90psi than with 28mm tubeless at 60 psi (please note I'm not a tubeless evangelist and there are lots of issues with them, but ride quality at lower pressures really helps as does the wider tyre). My most comfortable bike is a thorn raven sport tour with 853 tubing, steel forks and 26x1.6 tyres, it weighs a ton (and is 2-3mph slower) but would be my weapon of choice in many situations.
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Paulatic
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world bike problem...

Post by Paulatic »

road buzz could be tyres.
My recent experience I bought a Van Nic Yukon second hand Lovely bike, well built, loving the ride but there was a buzz at the handlebars. If you rode no hands you’d hear the vibrations. I swapped out the wired 28mm Shwalbe for my favoured folding 28mm Vittoria. Buzz all gone.
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Jdsk
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world bike problem...

Post by Jdsk »

nomm wrote: 6 Sep 2021, 1:13pmMy dilemma being the Thorn is a lot stiffer than the Wolfson - beautiful in its own ways and I can certainly seem to ride it 'till my legs fall off', but it is a lot less buttery than the Wolfson, thus picking up a lot more road buzz/bumps, seemingly impacting on fatigue levels 100KM+. I am sure if this has a lot to do with very complicated debates about tube techology, purpose design, my weight etc etc
Which tyres and width, and at what pressure?

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Re: ...how to solve a very first world bike problem...

Post by peetee »

You will find that tube diameters, gauges and fork curvature has far more to do with the ride quality than the composition and treatment of the steel.
853 is just the same as any other Reynolds tube in that there have been several incarnations over the years with tube gauges and profiles differing. Some builders hold records of what individual tubes were used so you could find the spec you are happy with and try to find something comparable off-the-peg or someone who would build it.
Last edited by peetee on 6 Sep 2021, 5:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nomm
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world bike problem...

Post by nomm »

28mm conti, 4 season on a handbuilt wheel set - it was the same wheels/tyres on both bikes

Carbon fork on Wolfson

853 fork on thorn
Jamesh
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world bike problem...

Post by Jamesh »

I'd try Michelin pro4 in 28mm come up near 30 and wonderfully smooth.

Audaxer tyre of choice.

Cheers James
nomm
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world bike problem...

Post by nomm »

Jamesh wrote: 6 Sep 2021, 6:49pm I'd try Michelin pro4 in 28mm come up near 30 and wonderfully smooth.

Audaxer tyre of choice.

Cheers James
But the same wheel/tyre set up on the other frame was wonderfully smooth - the conti ballon to about 30.8mm

I am not convinced the fork is the major reason. On descents I know well, I can feel the lack of undulation when the bike hits a dip, when compared to previous set up
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world bike problem...

Post by PH »

There is no answer, because any there is will be so subjective, two similar riders may well come to different conclusions. one mans buttery is another mans noodley!
The most comfortable Audax type bike I've ever ridden was a SOMA ES (The ES standing for Extra Smooth) I was possibly at the top end (Or over) the rider weight it was designed for, any luggage would have an adverse effect and getting out of the saddle would cause more flex than I was happy with. otherwise it was a fantastic buttery mile muncher. I sold it as I was hardly using it, I preferred my bigger tyres tourers, stiffer frame but 32+ tyres isolating the buzz.
I've recently started riding an E-bike for work, it's a bit of a plank, even with big tyres, I've ordered a short travel Thudbuster seatpost to see if that helps. it's not something I'd considered before, but researching shows there's several roadie style posts intended to do the same thing.
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world (steel) bike problem...

Post by iandusud »

Personally I don't think Continental 4 Seasons are a good choice if you want a good ride. They have a very stiff carcass. There are much better choices IMO which will give a more comfortable and faster ride.
st599_uk
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world (steel) bike problem...

Post by st599_uk »

Do Spa do Cycle2Work?
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pwa
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world (steel) bike problem...

Post by pwa »

Try inflating the tyres by 5psi less. With 28mm tyres you ought to be looking at something well below 100psi and maybe around 80psi. A bit less in the front tyre. Playing around with the pressure can greatly reduce road buzz without significantly slowing you down.
nomm
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world (steel) bike problem...

Post by nomm »

I run 85psi in both front and rear - as stated both bikes had the same tyres/wheels

I will experiment with the tyres and see if this impacts on ride quality
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531colin
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world (steel) bike problem...

Post by 531colin »

st599_uk wrote: 7 Sep 2021, 1:31pm Do Spa do Cycle2Work?
When I was at Spa, the mere mention of those schemes produced loud and prolonged swearing, and throwing things about.
Those schemes take from the retailer 10 or 12 % of the money spent. Thats 10 or 12 % of the gross amount, not of the retailer's profit.
It follows that if a retailer works to a modest profit margin, they can't afford the schemes.
peetee wrote: 6 Sep 2021, 3:31pm You will find that tube diameters, gauges and fork curvature has far more to do with the ride quality than the composition and treatment of the steel..........
Hmmm...Tube diameter is the major determinant of stiffness.....stiffness increases as something like the square or cube of diameter. This is why ovalising tubes is so effective.
Gauge (wall thickness) has a minor effect, fork curvature almost none, because the fork doesn't flex there, but up near the crown where the leverage is greatest. (and the steerer, but not if its inch and eighth steel)
If you want a compliant steel fork blade, Reynolds 631 isn't bad, and thats because the taper starts immediately below the cantilever studs, rather than almost half-way down the fork. For most fork blades, the size of the tube at the top is fixed by the common fork crowns, and neither the diameter of the tube at the bottom or the gauge vary very much.
(lots of information on Reynolds tubes on a website called "torch and file".....I'm not going looking for it, as my WiFi is impossible just now.)

Anecdote alert; I had the opportunity to ride back to back a standard Spa steel Audax and another one that some numpty had built out of oversize tubing. Same carbon fork, same wheels, same tyres, same pressure. On the oversize bike the sensation was that the soles of my feet had been beaten with a stick.
st599_uk
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Re: ...how to solve a very first world (steel) bike problem...

Post by st599_uk »

531colin wrote: 7 Sep 2021, 5:00pm
st599_uk wrote: 7 Sep 2021, 1:31pm Do Spa do Cycle2Work?
When I was at Spa, the mere mention of those schemes produced loud and prolonged swearing, and throwing things about.
Those schemes take from the retailer 10 or 12 % of the money spent. Thats 10 or 12 % of the gross amount, not of the retailer's profit.
It follows that if a retailer works to a modest profit margin, they can't afford the schemes.
Thanks, the OP mentioned that he had a Cycle2Work voucher and was looking at a Spa Steel Audax.

Hoping to visit Spa next month to have a try on a few different bikes and put a deposit down. Annoyingly the more I read, the less I know which I should go for - most of my decisions have been aesthetic.
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