Ti Bikes

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Norman H
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by Norman H »

Titanium frames can occasionally crack around the welds. It's not a major problem and it wouldn't put me off buying one but it makes a decent warranty worth paying a little extra for. Much depends on how heavy you are and the sort of riding that you do.

I rode a friend's Sabbath September for several hundred miles and was sorry to have to return it to it to him at the end. I don't know if Spa have Sabbath bikes for test riding but the ability to do so before buying is a significant advantage.
pwa
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by pwa »

I have two Spa titanium frames, one has done a lot of miles and the other has been on a tour fully loaded with four panniers, and I am not the lightest of riders, and neither has had any issues at all. The oldest must be a decade old and still flawless. You have to be unlucky to have a crack occur. I don't think failures are any more likely than with steel, carbon or aluminium, but unlike with most steel frames you won't get rust or have to repaint.

Most titanium frames are made in the Far East in factories that have now got really good at it, and I expect different brands you are looking at will be getting frames from the same establishment. Spa's current titanium frames are as beautifully finished as any I have seen, with the added bonus that Spa specify decent front centres so your toes are less likely to clash with the front tyre or mudguard, and a sensible seat tube angle so you can get your bottom far enough back.
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Audax67
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by Audax67 »

Anyone for a coucours d'élégance? Here's mine in 2015, just before I went carbon:

Image

NB room for two 1-litre bottles.

Tell you summat about Ti, too: the plain metal frame is always the most elegant paint job you can have, and you never have to worry about some bugger scratching it. Since I got my CF Trek I'm paranoid about leaning it against something rough with the frame in contact, and it has grotty patches of helico tape on the stays so that the Raceblades don't trap grit tight against it. A couple of weeks after I got it I parked it carefully with just a pedal and the front tyre in contact with a low wall while I signed into a ride, and when I came back some sod had overlapped his gaspipe special with it and pushed one of my seat-stays into the concrete capping, leaving a 1" long scratch. Instant heartbreak, only partially remedied with a Magic Marker.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
pwa
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by pwa »

bike1.JPG
This was my first go at putting my last tourer together, and the frame has since done loads of miles, some over gravelly surfaces, but remains flawless. Unlike the rider. Ignore the black tape around tubes, it is something I do when assembling but remove later. I have modified a few things since this pic was taken, but you can see the lovely frame that replaced my old Thorn Club Tour steel frame which had a rust problem. I have since straightened out the front mudguard and attached it to the higher fixing points, I've swapped the saddle for a leather one that suits me better, and I've tweaked things all over to get it just right. I had considered another Thorn Club Tour but I'm glad I didn't. This is nicer.
Last edited by pwa on 15 Sep 2021, 10:48am, edited 1 time in total.
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531colin
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by 531colin »

Marcus Aurelius wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 4:23pm Titanium frames can be a bit hit and miss, regarding failures at ( particularly ) the welds. However, top quality frames ( V.N. for example ) will be welded by people who do know their onions, so are reliable. Ti is a great material for a bike frame, but it does need to be built properly.
There is an exact parallel with wheelbuilding.
All sorts of people can build a wheel which looks right, but if you want a durable wheel find somebody who stress-relieves properly.
All sorts of people can build a titanium frame that looks pretty, but if you want a durable frame find somebody who heat-treats them properly after fabrication to get rid of the worst of the stresses that welding builds into the joints.

Somebody giving a good guarantee is an indication that they don't expect to get too many back.
Johnno260
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Joined: 14 Sep 2021, 10:00am

Re: Ti Bikes

Post by Johnno260 »

531colin wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 10:23am
Marcus Aurelius wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 4:23pm Titanium frames can be a bit hit and miss, regarding failures at ( particularly ) the welds. However, top quality frames ( V.N. for example ) will be welded by people who do know their onions, so are reliable. Ti is a great material for a bike frame, but it does need to be built properly.
There is an exact parallel with wheelbuilding.
All sorts of people can build a wheel which looks right, but if you want a durable wheel find somebody who stress-relieves properly.
All sorts of people can build a titanium frame that looks pretty, but if you want a durable frame find somebody who heat-treats them properly after fabrication to get rid of the worst of the stresses that welding builds into the joints.

Somebody giving a good guarantee is an indication that they don't expect to get too many back.
This is why I was looking at VN or now Reilly, both are lifetime warranties.
pwa
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by pwa »

Johnno260 wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 10:47am
531colin wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 10:23am
Marcus Aurelius wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 4:23pm Titanium frames can be a bit hit and miss, regarding failures at ( particularly ) the welds. However, top quality frames ( V.N. for example ) will be welded by people who do know their onions, so are reliable. Ti is a great material for a bike frame, but it does need to be built properly.
There is an exact parallel with wheelbuilding.
All sorts of people can build a wheel which looks right, but if you want a durable wheel find somebody who stress-relieves properly.
All sorts of people can build a titanium frame that looks pretty, but if you want a durable frame find somebody who heat-treats them properly after fabrication to get rid of the worst of the stresses that welding builds into the joints.

Somebody giving a good guarantee is an indication that they don't expect to get too many back.
This is why I was looking at VN or now Reilly, both are lifetime warranties.
10 years is more than long enough. If you've been using it and it ain't cracked then, it ain't gonna crack.
Johnno260
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by Johnno260 »

pwa wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 10:50am
Johnno260 wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 10:47am
531colin wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 10:23am

There is an exact parallel with wheelbuilding.
All sorts of people can build a wheel which looks right, but if you want a durable wheel find somebody who stress-relieves properly.
All sorts of people can build a titanium frame that looks pretty, but if you want a durable frame find somebody who heat-treats them properly after fabrication to get rid of the worst of the stresses that welding builds into the joints.

Somebody giving a good guarantee is an indication that they don't expect to get too many back.
This is why I was looking at VN or now Reilly, both are lifetime warranties.
10 years is more than long enough. If you've been using it and it ain't cracked then, it ain't gonna crack.
oh for sure the VN says lifetime but it actually reads 25yrs but thats more than enough SPA/Sabbath it's 10yrs.

The PX 2yrs and Ribble 3yrs is a little off putting. (PX Titus is lifetime)

Reilly offers lifetime but I would imagine thats 25yrs really.
the snail
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by the snail »

531colin wrote: 15 Sep 2021, 10:23am
Marcus Aurelius wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 4:23pm Titanium frames can be a bit hit and miss, regarding failures at ( particularly ) the welds. However, top quality frames ( V.N. for example ) will be welded by people who do know their onions, so are reliable. Ti is a great material for a bike frame, but it does need to be built properly.
There is an exact parallel with wheelbuilding.
All sorts of people can build a wheel which looks right, but if you want a durable wheel find somebody who stress-relieves properly.
All sorts of people can build a titanium frame that looks pretty, but if you want a durable frame find somebody who heat-treats them properly after fabrication to get rid of the worst of the stresses that welding builds into the joints.

Somebody giving a good guarantee is an indication that they don't expect to get too many back.
My understanding is that one of the problems with Ti welding is that the weld area has to be completely free of oxygen, inside and outside of the tubes, until the weld has cooled, or the weld becomes brittle. So the manufacturer needs to be experienced with ti, and have a suitable setup in the workshop. It's not straightforward to go from welding steel or aluminium to Ti.
rotavator
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by rotavator »

My understanding is that one of the problems with Ti welding is that the weld area has to be completely free of oxygen, inside and outside of the tubes, until the weld has cooled, or the weld becomes brittle. So the manufacturer needs to be experienced with ti, and have a suitable setup in the workshop. It's not straightforward to go from welding steel or aluminium to Ti.
I think the problem to avoid is nitrogen rather than oxygen. Titanium nitride is too hard and brittle. Argon is generally used as the inert atmosphere during welding.
LuckyLuke
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by LuckyLuke »

Johnno260 wrote: 14 Sep 2021, 10:51pm My other idea is getting a frame set with forks, and transferring my group set over.

I upgraded to 105 R7000 recently and I have some DCR wheels as well.

I would need to get a new stem and seat post maybe
Hi, I did the above. Brought a VN Yukon and some bits from “Fat Birds Don’t Fly” shop, via cycle to work 9-10 years ago. They might still offer frames only?

My Yukon was very well made and easy on the eye, but I didn’t like the ride. Felt leaden and dead. I’m a lightweight, was 63kg then, and a spinner. My riding is slow audax & audax-style rides, 100-200km. I prefer more flexy, skinny tubed steel frames, 23-25” size range. YMMV of course.

Best of luck with the search!

Luke
Jamesh
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by Jamesh »

biketips666
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by biketips666 »

Most titanium bikes don't seem to have titanium forks. Why is this?
pwa
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by pwa »

biketips666 wrote: 16 Sep 2021, 12:27am Most titanium bikes don't seem to have titanium forks. Why is this?
Having seen a few, they are quite wide tubed to provide adequate stiffness, and look a bit ugly on the road bike. You have quite slender titanium stays on a bike frame where tubes are attached to other tubes at each end, making triangles, but fork legs have one end free and that makes the springiness of titanium excessive with normal diameter tubes. The ones I've seen have also been round tubes, so perhaps more aero blade shapes are just not available, or would flex too much side to side.
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Audax67
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Re: Ti Bikes

Post by Audax67 »

biketips666 wrote: 16 Sep 2021, 12:27am Most titanium bikes don't seem to have titanium forks. Why is this?
Resonance: Ti forks are springy and liable to cause shimmy. A friend of mine had an early-2000s Passoni all-Ti bike and had fierce shimmy at certain speeds. Carbon is stiffer. I just visited the Passoni site: they're using carbon forks these days.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
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