Light, low geared hybrid?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
slowster
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Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by slowster »

I pasted the wrong link in my post above for a comparison of the gearing on the Liv Alight 1 vs. a Spa Super Compact 40/24 chainset (it shows a comparison with a 40/26 chainset instead of 40/24). Correct link below:

http://www.ritzelrechner.de/?GR=DERS&KB ... 6&UF2=2200
pwa
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Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by pwa »

dodgy wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 5:29pm Thanks for the replies.

We're really concerned about the hills around here! We only moved north from a really flat area recently, so are focused on light and low geared. Probably an £800 ish limit.

She has in the past used an old MTB with 1.5" slicks and really low gears 24 x 30 = 20 inch? and would like similarly low gearing if poss.

The Liv Thrive is light but the gears seem too high. The Liv Alight's gears seem ok but looks like it may be a bit heavy and tyres are a bit on the wide/chunky side. Perhaps we're being picky but with spending £800 I'd hoped to get something just right?
Only slightly above your limit:
https://spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s225p4009/S ... ar-8-Speed
Okay, they call it a "Tourer", but you can call it a "hybrid" because it is that as well. They can make the gearing as low as you like. But I would make a trip to the shop in Harrogate to check that you can get a good comfortable fit.

It would weigh a bit over 12kg in a small size. Maybe 12.5. I don't know how that compares with a Liv Thrive because I couldn't find any figures for that. And you have to allow for one bike including extras such as a rack in the weight and another not doing that. But hybrids are usually practical multi-purpose bikes and are rarely very light. If it were me I would just avoid the definitely heavy ones. I'd check that every component is built for the purpose, which they will be on the bike linked to, then accept the weight. Most users will get up a hill faster and easier on a slightly heavier bike with the appropriate low gears than they would on a lighter bike whose gears don't quite go low enough.
nirakaro
Posts: 1578
Joined: 22 Dec 2007, 2:01am

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by nirakaro »

pwa wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 7:30amMost users will get up a hill faster and easier on a slightly heavier bike with the appropriate low gears than they would on a lighter bike whose gears don't quite go low enough.
+1. Light weight is nice, but low gearing is critical. An extra kilo isn't much more than 1% of total bike-plus-rider weight.
dodgy
Posts: 30
Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 5:53pm

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by dodgy »

pwa wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 7:30am
dodgy wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 5:29pm Thanks for the replies.

We're really concerned about the hills around here! We only moved north from a really flat area recently, so are focused on light and low geared. Probably an £800 ish limit.

She has in the past used an old MTB with 1.5" slicks and really low gears 24 x 30 = 20 inch? and would like similarly low gearing if poss.

The Liv Thrive is light but the gears seem too high. The Liv Alight's gears seem ok but looks like it may be a bit heavy and tyres are a bit on the wide/chunky side. Perhaps we're being picky but with spending £800 I'd hoped to get something just right?
Only slightly above your limit:
https://spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s225p4009/S ... ar-8-Speed
Okay, they call it a "Tourer", but you can call it a "hybrid" because it is that as well. They can make the gearing as low as you like. But I would make a trip to the shop in Harrogate to check that you can get a good comfortable fit.

It would weigh a bit over 12kg in a small size. Maybe 12.5. I don't know how that compares with a Liv Thrive because I couldn't find any figures for that. And you have to allow for one bike including extras such as a rack in the weight and another not doing that. But hybrids are usually practical multi-purpose bikes and are rarely very light. If it were me I would just avoid the definitely heavy ones. I'd check that every component is built for the purpose, which they will be on the bike linked to, then accept the weight. Most users will get up a hill faster and easier on a slightly heavier bike with the appropriate low gears than they would on a lighter bike whose gears don't quite go low enough.
Thanks for that. It's definitely an idea worth exploring. I've checked every Liv dealer in a 100 mile radius and none have stock of the Alight 1 in xs that we were looking at!
slowster
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Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by slowster »

dodgy wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 11:02am She's fairly short and doesn't want to be stretched out so drops are probably out.
A lot of people who think drop bars would stretch them out too much and be uncomfortable, probably have a poor bike set up. With a good bike fit, drop bars should feel very natural and comfortable, even with a greater distance from the saddle to the hoods compared with the distance to grips on a flat barred bike.

Getting the saddle height *and setback* right is crucial to this. When I put my saddle back 10mm to take account of reduced fitness and strength, I found that I wanted a 10mm *longer* stem (rather than a shorter stem). In other words, this aspect of bike fitting can be somewhat counter-intuitive. With the saddle too far forward, almost any position might feel overly stretched, because the upper body is not properly balanced (resulting in too much weight on the handlebars). Getting the bike fit right is critical whatever bars are chosen.

How tall is she, and what is her inside leg measurement?

Also, be aware that when comparing bikes individual numbers in the geometry tables can be very deceptive when considered in isolation.

For example, compare the XS Liv Alight with the 51cm size of the Spa Tourer to which pwa has linked.

https://www.liv-cycling.com/gb/alight-1-disc

http://www.spacycles.co.uk/smsimg/uploa ... ometry.jpg

The Spa has a 51cm seat tube compared with the Alight's 37cm seat tube. Therefore the Alight would appear to be a much smaller frame and suitable for much shorter riders. The (effective) top tube measurements support this: 564mm for the Spa vs. 545mm for the Alight. Based on that a rider will have a 19mm longer reach with the Spa.

However, that is not the full picture, because the Alight has a seat tube which is 2 degrees steeper than the Spa (74 vs 72 degrees). Consequently to get the same saddle setback behind the bottom bracket on both bikes, the saddle on the Alight will need to be pushed further back in the saddle clamp (and potentially a replacement seat post allowing more setback fitted). As a rough rule of thumb each degree difference in seat tube tube angle equates to around 1cm difference in effective top tube length. In other words, as far as the reach is concerned the Spa is not larger than the Alight, but rather probably so similar as to make little or no significant difference.

In contrast the standover height is much less on the Alight: 683mm vs 768mm for the 51cm Spa. As I say, it's never just about one single number: it's the overall combination that matters. With small frames and 700C wheels a degree of compromise is usually unavoidable, and what matters is choosing the right balance of compromises for the individual rider. Higher standover is potentially a compromise, but it is something which affects getting on and off the bike and stopping, as opposed to the fit and handling of the bike when it is being ridden.

A couple of other things to consider are toe overlap and overall handling and stability.

It is very common for people on small/extra small frames with 700C wheels to find they have toe overlap (something your partner almost certainly would not have experienced with her 26" wheeled MTB). The problem for frame designers is accommodating the larger 700C wheel size - especially if wider tyres and mudguards are fitted - with the need to have a suitably short top tube and reach. Although toe overlap is heavily determined by these two conflicting factors and the individual rider's shoe size/cleat position, variations in the head angle and fork offset can make the difference between no overlap and very bad overlap.

By my calculation (using Pythagoras) the Alight XS has a front centre measurement of 623mm (distance from bottom bracket axle to front wheel axle). That is a very large front centre measurement for such a small frame size, i.e. there should be no toe overlap even with wide tyres and mudguards fitted. It is not unusual to find small frames with front centre measurements of less than 600mm. Spa actually state the front centre measurements of their frames, and for the 51cm Tourer it is 610mm, which I would expect to give no toe overlap for a shorter rider with corresponding sized feet, even with mudguards and wide tyres (or at worst the sort of toe overlap which is not significant, i.e. the tip of the shoe will brush the centre of the mudguard only if the shoe is at just the 'right' angle and the bars are sharply turned for a very low speed turn, such as when doing a U turn on a narrow lane).

With regards to stability, if riding in a hilly area like Kendal, I would put a high priority on predictable, stable handling; even more so for someone who was not a very experienced rider. I cannot comment from personal experience on the Alight, but I *think* its combination of a 70 degree head angle, 50mm fork offset and 451mm chainstay length should give a stable, sure ride, unlike other bikes with more 'lively', racier geometry. I can, however, comment on the Spa Tourer from personal experience, since I have a 54cm which has the same head angle, fork offset and chainstay length as the 51cm: it is a rock solid, super stable bike, and gives great confidence when descending.

NB I did not compare the XS Alight with the smaller 48cm Spa Tourer, because the latter uses 26" wheels, which makes comparison less straightforward. If your partner is very short, a 26" wheeled bike might be optimum, but the choice of good quality fast rolling tyres in that size is very limited. I think it is telling that of Spa's other frames, all the more recent designs do not apparently use 26" wheels in the smallest size. However, if your partner test rode a 48cm Spa Tourer with 26" wheels and found it significantly better than any other bike, she might decide that the limited tyre choice was a better compromise for her than whatever compromise(s) a 700C frame might entail.
djnotts
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Location: Nottingham

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by djnotts »

Trek fx series has been probably their best seller for many years. There are thus plenty 2nd hand examples! E.g.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trek-FX2-Dis ... 635-2958-0

Hydraulic discs and 3 x 8. What more could be necessary?

Usual disclaimer, not mine.
iandusud
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Joined: 26 Mar 2018, 1:35pm

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by iandusud »

A lady friend ask me for advice a couple of years back for a bike along the lines of what you are looking for. After looking around I suggested a Trek FX1. No disc brakes (lighter and easier maintenance) and no suspension fork (lighter and easier maintenance). Interestingly when she went to Evans to buy one they tried to sell her a bike with disc brakes and suspension fork! She is delighted with the bike. Low gear is 28/34 giving 22".
GrahamJ
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Joined: 18 Nov 2020, 8:15am

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by GrahamJ »

If I lived in Kendal, I would want MTB gearing. I suggest your partner hires (or borrows if possible!) an MTB with a lowest gear around 17" and tries climbing some local hills with and without using the lowest gears.

I find Bike Insights (https://bikeinsights.com/) very useful for comparing sizing and geometry, though it works best if there is a bike which already you know suits you.
dodgy
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Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 5:53pm

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by dodgy »

Thanks all.Plenty to think about there!

I reckon it's going to be into 2022 before we can source the Alight, so may have to stick with the old mtb for the next few months. Problem is: sticking new tyres on the really old rear wheel has blown the paper thin rims off :roll: I guess I'm heading to ebay for an new old wheel. Do I need to fit my old 7 speed sprockets to the replacement, or will the sprockets fitted to the replacement do?
slowster
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Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by slowster »

You need to check if your current wheel has a 7 speed cassette (on a freehub) or a 7 speed freewheel on an old style hub designed for screw on freewheels. The differences are explained in the Park Tool video in this link - https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-he ... wheel-type

If the sprockets on your current wheel are heavily worn, as happens when the chain is not replaced before it has worn and stretched too much, then you will probably find that they will not work well with a new chain and the new chain will skip on the sprockets. In that situation you would need either to continue using them with the current chain and running them together both to destruction, or to fit both a new chain and new cassette/freewheel to whatever wheel you buy.

However, whether your current wheel has a freewheel or a cassette, you will only be able to transplant it to a new wheel if the new wheel is the same type, i.e. a freewheel will not fit on a hub designed for cassettes (and vice versa). If they are different, then you will have to buy a new cassette or freewheel (whichever the new wheel requires) plus a new chain. Do not use an old chain with a new cassette or new freewheel, because it needlessly shortens the useable lifespan of the sprockets.

In general the freehub design is much better than the freewheel system, e.g. axle breakages are very rare with freehubs, but much more common with freewheel hubs. Therefore it's probably best to choose a new wheel with a freehub, even if your current wheel has a freewheel which you would no longer be able to use, and just buy a new cassette and chain, This also would save you the bother of trying to remove a stuck freewheel, which is often a swine of a task.

If the new wheel has a 8/9/10 speed freehub, which is likely because 7 speed hubs have largely been discontinued, you will need to buy a 4.5mm spacer like the one below to fit behind the 7 speed cassette and take up the spare space on the freehub.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/j ... ion-black/

Park Tool videos on freewheel removal and installation and on cassette removal and installation in the links below:

https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-he ... stallation

https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-he ... stallation
MikeF
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Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by MikeF »

dodgy wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 7:28pm

Problem is: sticking new tyres on the really old rear wheel has blown the paper thin rims off :roll:
:shock: :shock: That could have happened with the old tyres as well as it's the tyre pressure that does that.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
dodgy
Posts: 30
Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 5:53pm

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by dodgy »

slowster wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 8:16pm You need to check if your current wheel has a 7 speed cassette (on a freehub) or a 7 speed freewheel on an old style hub designed for screw on freewheels. The differences are explained in the Park Tool video in this link - https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-he ... wheel-type

If the sprockets on your current wheel are heavily worn, as happens when the chain is not replaced before it has worn and stretched too much, then you will probably find that they will not work well with a new chain and the new chain will skip on the sprockets. In that situation you would need either to continue using them with the current chain and running them together both to destruction, or to fit both a new chain and new cassette/freewheel to whatever wheel you buy.

However, whether your current wheel has a freewheel or a cassette, you will only be able to transplant it to a new wheel if the new wheel is the same type, i.e. a freewheel will not fit on a hub designed for cassettes (and vice versa). If they are different, then you will have to buy a new cassette or freewheel (whichever the new wheel requires) plus a new chain. Do not use an old chain with a new cassette or new freewheel, because it needlessly shortens the useable lifespan of the sprockets.

In general the freehub design is much better than the freewheel system, e.g. axle breakages are very rare with freehubs, but much more common with freewheel hubs. Therefore it's probably best to choose a new wheel with a freehub, even if your current wheel has a freewheel which you would no longer be able to use, and just buy a new cassette and chain, This also would save you the bother of trying to remove a stuck freewheel, which is often a swine of a task.

If the new wheel has a 8/9/10 speed freehub, which is likely because 7 speed hubs have largely been discontinued, you will need to buy a 4.5mm spacer like the one below to fit behind the 7 speed cassette and take up the spare space on the freehub.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/j ... ion-black/

Park Tool videos on freewheel removal and installation and on cassette removal and installation in the links below:

https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-he ... stallation

https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-he ... stallation
Thanks again for such a detailed explanation.
nomm
Posts: 415
Joined: 13 Oct 2015, 8:39pm

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by nomm »

gcogger wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 3:04pm What price range are you considering? My wife has an IslaBikes Janis and loves it, although it's a step through frame. It's very light and has very low gearing.

https://www.islabikes.co.uk/products/icon-janis
Second to this - My Mum rides one (70 yrs old) and we live in Bristol. Its lighter than my road bike and she gloats about how she hasn't even used the lowest gear yet

Very well thought out frame, light, good spec - picked up a factory soiled one cheaper... although still looking for the soiling
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by pwa »

nomm wrote: 17 Oct 2021, 6:55pm
gcogger wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 3:04pm What price range are you considering? My wife has an IslaBikes Janis and loves it, although it's a step through frame. It's very light and has very low gearing.

https://www.islabikes.co.uk/products/icon-janis
Second to this - My Mum rides one (70 yrs old) and we live in Bristol. Its lighter than my road bike and she gloats about how she hasn't even used the lowest gear yet

Very well thought out frame, light, good spec - picked up a factory soiled one cheaper... although still looking for the soiling
It does look good. Pricey though. A plus for Islabikes is that they do fit handlebars and cranks of proportionate size to the expected user.
djnotts
Posts: 3036
Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Light, low geared hybrid?

Post by djnotts »

There's a Janis in small on ebay just reduced to 549 quid.
Usual disclaimer, not mine, no interest.
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