Viscount bicycles!!

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
dnrc
Posts: 93
Joined: 22 Nov 2010, 12:06am

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby dnrc » 27 Aug 2011, 7:09pm

Hi all, i've been collecting parts and stripping my viscount for rebuild which i started today.

However when stripping it the BB bearings were shot so I got some replacements. But when refitting, due to the fact the spindle is made of soft cheese i've managed to ruin it.

So now i need either another spindle or a replacement BB.

If i went for the following (there are several on ebay too):
http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/ebwPNLq ... 151c003226

what size should i go for? they come in 110, 113 and 116?

Would i be able to use my sugino super maxy cranks on them?

Cheers

busaste
Posts: 365
Joined: 1 Mar 2008, 10:18pm

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby busaste » 28 Aug 2011, 10:56am

dnrc wrote:Hi all, i've been collecting parts and stripping my viscount for rebuild which i started today.

However when stripping it the BB bearings were shot so I got some replacements. But when refitting, due to the fact the spindle is made of soft cheese i've managed to ruin it.

So now i need either another spindle or a replacement BB.

If i went for the following (there are several on ebay too):
http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/ebwPNLq ... 151c003226

what size should i go for? they come in 110, 113 and 116?

Would i be able to use my sugino super maxy cranks on them?

Cheers


If you want to use the Super Maxy cranks you will need to replicate the existing chainline (assuming it is correct!) and make sure you get a BB with JIS taper. Viscount used a 119 - 122mm long BB spindle.

I have posted plenty of stuff on this forum about Viscount's BB and associated chainline issues. I think the following from my 29/3/11 post should be helpful:

"If you look at page 9 on this thread you will see a post I did on Viscount's BB. There are plenty of options!

Some extra information to consider:

a) Klein made a BB spindle that is I think 116mm long. It has no grooves for circlips but don't worry you fix it in place by Loctite (same for the Phil Wood spindle but these are rarer than hen's teeth). This Klein spindle would be perfect for modern offset cranks.

b) BUT there is a caveat to a) above (you mean you thought it was going to be easy?). Viscount Aerospace frames have an unusual chainline. Let me explain. Look carefully at the OEM BB spindle; there is more metal beyond the circlip on the RH side than the LH side. This makes the RH pedal sit further away from the frame's seat tube than the LH pedal. I've measured all my Viscount Aerospace bikes (that's the ones with fillet brazed frames) and my stash of OEM BB spindles (for sealed bearings)and found this to be the case. Without exception the RH pedal sticks out between 3 - 6mm more than the one on the left. Further investigation has revealed why. The rear hub is set up on its axle to sit close to the inner face of the RH drop out. This is good in a way because you do not need too much dishing on the freewheel side of the wheel. That gives a stronger wheel and less strain on the hub. To get a good chainline with a back wheel set up like this, the cranks/chainrings have to stick out further on the RH side than would normally be the case. Curiously though, Viscount did not produce an equivalent amount of beyond circlip length on the LH side to balance things out. I've no idea why. It worries me a bit. Would asymmetrical pedal spacing be damaging to the body? Does it matter if you right foot sits further out in relation to the bodies centre line than the left? ALL my Aerospace models are set up like this. It is the way the factory did it. If you ride a VA model with a fillet brazed frame there is no escaping this. If you put a more conventional back wheel in the frame it really does pull the freewheel a good way over to the left. This is only a problem though if you use the Aerospace BB spindle. My friendly LBS (Hewitt Cycles - top place) worked out the correct distance between the centre of the seat tube and the centre of the space between the two chainrings. It should be 41.5mm to give a perfect chainline WITH A OEM Viscount back wheel. On one of my Aerospace Pros the actual distance is 47.5mm and that is with an OEM BB spindle/cranks/chainrings. Strewth, 6mm out! No wonder it eats chains and my right knee feels a bit iffy..."


Taking all of the above into account it seems likely that of the options mentioned in your post, a 116mm BB will give you the best result. The ends of the BB shell will need to be cut with a special facing tool though so that the cartridge unit sits properly. THIS MUST BE DONE. Please bear in mind that this is a 'no going back' solution. If you are prepared to take this kind of route you might want to consider some of the other options that I have previously posted, e.g. tapping out the BB shell for an Italian thread which enables you to use a big range of conventional BB's. A regular poster here, Bendo, has this on one of his Aerospace frames. It works fine.

Let us know how you get on.

PW
Posts: 4519
Joined: 23 Jan 2007, 10:50am
Location: N. Derbys.

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby PW » 28 Aug 2011, 12:17pm

Hmmm...
My Aerospace Deore 18AX (lugged Chromoly) used to run a 127mm b/b which was on the original Shimano "made of cheese" triple and I stuck with that length ever after. I did try the early FAG cartridge units (short component life) but eventually settled on the Shimano UN5X type.
For chainline purposes that bike when new had the early compact 6 freehub. The middle ring of the triple lined up with 4th IIRC. Gearing was 52/42/32 X 13-28. (Until the Deore rubbish fell apart and I rebuilt it in Campag :roll: )
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!

DannytheLuddite
Posts: 11
Joined: 27 Aug 2009, 3:06pm
Location: London

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby DannytheLuddite » 28 Aug 2011, 1:04pm

My LBS (F W Evans) advised against tapping out the BB shell to take a threaded cartridge - they considered it would weaken the shell and "it was a shame to spoil such a nice frame". So I found a Klein BB spindle on eBay of the right length for my new chainset, and fitted that in place of the original spindle, as recounted in my earlier posts.. The only cycle maintenance I've ever done that consisted almost entirely of hammering :)

I've now fitted aero brake levers - not because I particularly wanted to, but I couldn't find replacements for the worn and perished rubber hoods on the original Shimano Tourney levers. I find these levers more comfortable and easier to reach when braking, so no complaints. The main thing is that I'm riding again, and my Aerospace Sport is once again in regular use. It's a great bike!

PW
Posts: 4519
Joined: 23 Jan 2007, 10:50am
Location: N. Derbys.

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby PW » 28 Aug 2011, 1:09pm

Sorry, mine had a threaded B/B. I'd temporarily forgotten about the Viscount press fit cups. :oops:
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!

dnrc
Posts: 93
Joined: 22 Nov 2010, 12:06am

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby dnrc » 28 Aug 2011, 8:57pm

busaste wrote:
dnrc wrote:Hi all, i've been collecting parts and stripping my viscount for rebuild which i started today.

However when stripping it the BB bearings were shot so I got some replacements. But when refitting, due to the fact the spindle is made of soft cheese i've managed to ruin it.

So now i need either another spindle or a replacement BB.

If i went for the following (there are several on ebay too):
http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/ebwPNLq ... 151c003226

what size should i go for? they come in 110, 113 and 116?

Would i be able to use my sugino super maxy cranks on them?

Cheers


If you want to use the Super Maxy cranks you will need to replicate the existing chainline (assuming it is correct!) and make sure you get a BB with JIS taper. Viscount used a 119 - 122mm long BB spindle.

I have posted plenty of stuff on this forum about Viscount's BB and associated chainline issues. I think the following from my 29/3/11 post should be helpful:

"If you look at page 9 on this thread you will see a post I did on Viscount's BB. There are plenty of options!

Some extra information to consider:

a) Klein made a BB spindle that is I think 116mm long. It has no grooves for circlips but don't worry you fix it in place by Loctite (same for the Phil Wood spindle but these are rarer than hen's teeth). This Klein spindle would be perfect for modern offset cranks.

b) BUT there is a caveat to a) above (you mean you thought it was going to be easy?). Viscount Aerospace frames have an unusual chainline. Let me explain. Look carefully at the OEM BB spindle; there is more metal beyond the circlip on the RH side than the LH side. This makes the RH pedal sit further away from the frame's seat tube than the LH pedal. I've measured all my Viscount Aerospace bikes (that's the ones with fillet brazed frames) and my stash of OEM BB spindles (for sealed bearings)and found this to be the case. Without exception the RH pedal sticks out between 3 - 6mm more than the one on the left. Further investigation has revealed why. The rear hub is set up on its axle to sit close to the inner face of the RH drop out. This is good in a way because you do not need too much dishing on the freewheel side of the wheel. That gives a stronger wheel and less strain on the hub. To get a good chainline with a back wheel set up like this, the cranks/chainrings have to stick out further on the RH side than would normally be the case. Curiously though, Viscount did not produce an equivalent amount of beyond circlip length on the LH side to balance things out. I've no idea why. It worries me a bit. Would asymmetrical pedal spacing be damaging to the body? Does it matter if you right foot sits further out in relation to the bodies centre line than the left? ALL my Aerospace models are set up like this. It is the way the factory did it. If you ride a VA model with a fillet brazed frame there is no escaping this. If you put a more conventional back wheel in the frame it really does pull the freewheel a good way over to the left. This is only a problem though if you use the Aerospace BB spindle. My friendly LBS (Hewitt Cycles - top place) worked out the correct distance between the centre of the seat tube and the centre of the space between the two chainrings. It should be 41.5mm to give a perfect chainline WITH A OEM Viscount back wheel. On one of my Aerospace Pros the actual distance is 47.5mm and that is with an OEM BB spindle/cranks/chainrings. Strewth, 6mm out! No wonder it eats chains and my right knee feels a bit iffy..."


Taking all of the above into account it seems likely that of the options mentioned in your post, a 116mm BB will give you the best result. The ends of the BB shell will need to be cut with a special facing tool though so that the cartridge unit sits properly. THIS MUST BE DONE. Please bear in mind that this is a 'no going back' solution. If you are prepared to take this kind of route you might want to consider some of the other options that I have previously posted, e.g. tapping out the BB shell for an Italian thread which enables you to use a big range of conventional BB's. A regular poster here, Bendo, has this on one of his Aerospace frames. It works fine.

Let us know how you get on.



Well basically what I want is a solution I can actually use. It's all well and good giving several options but as far as I can see most of them aren't actually viable. It seems you can't currently get a Klein or Viscount spindle so I need another option.

Why would anything need cutting/facing to use the yst BB? Surely it will be held in line due to the fact it sits inside the bb shell?

Seems to me I either need the threadless BB or have it tapped, but then I presumably need spacers as the shell is about 3.5mm too short for an italian BB.

But either of the above options will mean needing to buy the bracket, some spacers (HMW127) and a new chainset?

Apologies if my tone seems terse but this was only bought as a a bit of a runaround and a little project, i've already bought £100 worth of bits on top of the purchase price to spruce it up but it continues to be a pain and now seems more trouble than it's worth.

If there's no reasonable solution then I may just have to write it off.

Bendo
Posts: 292
Joined: 3 Nov 2010, 10:10am

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby Bendo » 29 Aug 2011, 1:54pm

Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble with your Viscount. I do think your tone is a bit rude, however. Busaste has given you several different options, all of which will work. Sometimes when fixing up old bikes you come into unforeseen problems. Sometimes they cost money, sometimes they require time. That's how it is. It's not the fault of anyone here. Maybe it's just time for you to cash out of this project. It sounds like you're pretty over it.

The irony is I know that several of the regular posters on this forum own some of the spare parts you require, and may have been motivated to part with them for a worthy project.

b

dnrc
Posts: 93
Joined: 22 Nov 2010, 12:06am

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby dnrc » 1 Sep 2011, 10:06am

I already said I apologised for my tone being off, I was hacked off at the time of writing and I realised that. That doesn't make my point about the suggested options any less valid though.

I appreciate the advice but three out of the 5 are non starters because you simply can't get the parts.

And how would I have known people may have had the required parts if they don't say so? I already have PM'ed busaste about some bits he may have had and I got completely ignored.

But anyway i'm not here to to cause or get grief. I just want to sort my bike out.

So I have one of those YST jobs on order. Hopefully I may be able to get it rideable at the weekend.

Spudh
Posts: 42
Joined: 11 Aug 2011, 10:42pm

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby Spudh » 1 Sep 2011, 11:11am

[quote="dnrc"]I already said I apologised for my tone being off, I was hacked off at the time of writing and I realised that. That doesn't make my point about the suggested options any less valid though. quote]

I'm a member of a few different forums and it has always amazed me how quick people get p*ssed off with each other on this media, with arguments getting personal very quickly. Just read lately about a psychologist who did a study on just this subject and his findings make perfect sense. Humans being social animals the content of what we say (as in the actual words) constitute a very low percentage of the message we are actually tryingto get across. Words on their own lack the emotional , tonal and physical ques that put them in context. The written word has always been an art form that escapes many of us (myself included). One of my favorite examples of colloquial context is; How does a Corkman say he doesn't want to do something you've asked him to do? He says 'I will, yeah'. Try interpreting that written down without the sarcasm dripping out of the 'yeah'. :shock:

Anyway back to the Viscount, mine is coming along very nicely. My wife didn't like the saddle so we got a Bontranger saddle from the LBS. It rides really well. I'm very happy with the feel and handling of it. It's as good a 'no-hander' as I've ever ridden so that tells me enough about the geometry to be confident that its not going to throw my wife off anytime soon. She's not used to racing bikes and finds the drops too long a stretch so I'm going to try and pick up a second set of drops with a shorter head stem for her. She really like the feel of it too and the Viscount has picked up a few new fans in her Triathlon club when they see how much of a bike can be had for such handy money. :D :D

I'm still struggling with the crank alignmnet though. :? As Busaste suspected it was misaligned. I can get it running pretty straight (at least straight enough to not hit both sides of the derailleur) but I can't keep it that way. The problem is the spindle bolt. It works loose. Its the correct thread pitch, 22TPI with an R on the bolt head, according to this http://www.britishfasteners.com/BRITISH ... RKINGS.pdf its dfinitely a BSF, but it's fractionally smaller than 5/16. It's not metric but it's not 5/16 either. Both sides are the same bolt and both are too loose in the spindle thread. This means that I can't torque them with confidence that I'm not goint to strip the spindle thread. I tried a few LBS's but most look at me as if I've two heads and just hand me two modern crank bolts which of course are the wrong thread. I've one more LBS to try here in this town but in the meantime I've a few 5/16 bolts on order from the UK. I got some 5/16 BSF taps so when I get the bolts I'll run them through the spindle and try again. If that fails I'll go up to the next metric size and tap it to a fine thread. I'll put a bolt long enough to go through the spindle bearing to make up for any loss of strength.

I've panaracer pasellas on the way from the US, should be here next week, cant wait to get them on it 8) .

The next thing I want is a decent set of pedals. My wife won't wear clip ins so the next best thing is a nice set of ones with toe clips. It'll take a bit of convincing to get her to use them but I know she'll come round after she tries them. Lookng back along this thread, the OE pedals look really nice. Anyone got a spare set of those or can anyone recommend a good replacement?

Bendo
Posts: 292
Joined: 3 Nov 2010, 10:10am

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby Bendo » 1 Sep 2011, 11:36am

For the pedals, I'd recommend MKS Sylvan Quill pedals. The same design, still made new in Japan. They make toe clips and straps as well. Really nice quality.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/mks-sylvan-road-pedals

b

Spudh
Posts: 42
Joined: 11 Aug 2011, 10:42pm

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby Spudh » 1 Sep 2011, 5:01pm

Spudh wrote:I tried a few LBS's but most look at me as if I've two heads and just hand me two modern crank bolts which of course are the wrong thread. I've one more LBS to try here in this town but in the meantime I've a few 5/16 bolts on order from the UK.


I tried that last LBS near me and was told gruffly that it was a Vicount not a Viscount (I think he was confusing it with the biscuit :mrgreen: ) and that the spindle couldn't be BSF as the British never made a spindle that didn't have a metric thread. Telling him that the bolt in situ was most definitely BSF met with a derisive grunt. :roll:

So I won't be going back there again :|

Never mind, I'm handy enough on the tools myself and the info on here is a goldmine anyway :P

I'm into old Range Rovers (I work quite a bit in surveying and forestry) and have had the same experience there, where the knowledge on the better forums is soooo far ahead of anything but a specialist garage (the nearest one of which is nearly 60 miles away so I've had to learn a lot).

Bendo
Posts: 292
Joined: 3 Nov 2010, 10:10am

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby Bendo » 2 Sep 2011, 9:27am

Spudh wrote:
Spudh wrote:I tried a few LBS's but most look at me as if I've two heads and just hand me two modern crank bolts which of course are the wrong thread. I've one more LBS to try here in this town but in the meantime I've a few 5/16 bolts on order from the UK.


I tried that last LBS near me and was told gruffly that it was a Vicount not a Viscount (I think he was confusing it with the biscuit :mrgreen: ) and that the spindle couldn't be BSF as the British never made a spindle that didn't have a metric thread. Telling him that the bolt in situ was most definitely BSF met with a derisive grunt. :roll:

So I won't be going back there again :|

Never mind, I'm handy enough on the tools myself and the info on here is a goldmine anyway :P

I'm into old Range Rovers (I work quite a bit in surveying and forestry) and have had the same experience there, where the knowledge on the better forums is soooo far ahead of anything but a specialist garage (the nearest one of which is nearly 60 miles away so I've had to learn a lot).


Well it is pronounced "Vycount", just don't leave out the "o" when typing... :shock:

Yeah I think that "professional arrogance" of the lbs is being seriously challenged by the shared wisdom of the internets. Sure there's a lot of crap info around on the web, but there's no-one on my whole continent knows as much about Viscounts as the few people here... The only drawback is prices going up because of our enthusiastic promotion of the marque! b

Spudh
Posts: 42
Joined: 11 Aug 2011, 10:42pm

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby Spudh » 5 Sep 2011, 10:03am

:doh: :( :(

I just missed an SR Apex Crank on ebay, I had put in a small bid last week to keep it on my radar but missed the end time last night as I was putting the kids to bed. It went for £5.91!!! :evil: :evil:

I hope one of you guys got it :wink:

busaste
Posts: 365
Joined: 1 Mar 2008, 10:18pm

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby busaste » 5 Sep 2011, 10:43pm

dnrc wrote:I already said I apologised for my tone being off, I was hacked off at the time of writing and I realised that. That doesn't make my point about the suggested options any less valid though.

I appreciate the advice but three out of the 5 are non starters because you simply can't get the parts.

And how would I have known people may have had the required parts if they don't say so? I already have PM'ed busaste about some bits he may have had and I got completely ignored.

But anyway i'm not here to to cause or get grief. I just want to sort my bike out.

So I have one of those YST jobs on order. Hopefully I may be able to get it rideable at the weekend.


PM sent.

busaste
Posts: 365
Joined: 1 Mar 2008, 10:18pm

Re: Viscount bicycles!!

Postby busaste » 5 Sep 2011, 10:58pm

Bendo wrote:
Spudh wrote:
Spudh wrote:I tried a few LBS's but most look at me as if I've two heads and just hand me two modern crank bolts which of course are the wrong thread. I've one more LBS to try here in this town but in the meantime I've a few 5/16 bolts on order from the UK.


I tried that last LBS near me and was told gruffly that it was a Vicount not a Viscount (I think he was confusing it with the biscuit :mrgreen: ) and that the spindle couldn't be BSF as the British never made a spindle that didn't have a metric thread. Telling him that the bolt in situ was most definitely BSF met with a derisive grunt. :roll:

So I won't be going back there again :|

Never mind, I'm handy enough on the tools myself and the info on here is a goldmine anyway :P

I'm into old Range Rovers (I work quite a bit in surveying and forestry) and have had the same experience there, where the knowledge on the better forums is soooo far ahead of anything but a specialist garage (the nearest one of which is nearly 60 miles away so I've had to learn a lot).


Well it is pronounced "Vycount", just don't leave out the "o" when typing... :shock:

Yeah I think that "professional arrogance" of the lbs is being seriously challenged by the shared wisdom of the internets. Sure there's a lot of crap info around on the web, but there's no-one on my whole continent knows as much about Viscounts as the few people here... The only drawback is prices going up because of our enthusiastic promotion of the marque! b


Some of these LBS are really doing the industry no good at all!!!!!

I'm lucky where I live because my LBS is like those of old. They build their own frames, can repair anything, fabricate parts, build wheels, build their own bikes, etc. The shop is Hewitt Cycles (I have no connection, financial interest, etc.) in Leyland, Lancashire. I mention them because they have done the following Viscount related jobs for me:

Built wheels around Viscount hubs
Service sealed bearing Viscount hubs and bottom brackets
Done minor Aerospace frame repairs
Faced the BB shell edges of an Aerospace frame to take a threadless BB (Mavic and YST)
Repainted frames (done for them by an amazingly talented old lady!)
Tapped out an OEM spindle to metric fine thread (MUCH better)
Cut down and fitted none standard chrome forks

There is a certain irony here because the LBS owner, Paul Hewiit, had a terrible bike accident many years ago. One day he was riding his Lambert when...the death fork snapped. Imagine how he felt when I brought in a death fork many years later.

Like I said, I've no connection with Hewitt cycles. I'm just passing on details of them to hopefully help fellow Viscount (and Lambert) fans.

Long live this Viscount thread and good LBS!