And can anyone recommend a good place to take a course? Thanks!Difference between City & Guild and Cytech/NVQ
Difference between City & Guild and Cytech/NVQ
Hi all, I'm looking at taking a course in cycle maintenance/repair, but it's got to be one that leads to a "proper" qualification at the end. So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on which is better, the Cytech/NVQ programme, or the City & Guilds in cycle maintenance? Or even if you can tell me of the differences between them, because I really don't have a clue And can anyone recommend a good place to take a course? Thanks!
And can anyone recommend a good place to take a course? Thanks!-
thirdcrank
- Posts: 36781
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
worthers
As nobody else is replying, this is what I know from my wife having been involved in NVQ assessing in another field completely. (She is a registered nurse and for some years was involved with training and assessing carers. She is currently in hospital so I have not been able to check all this with her.)
National Vocational Qualifications are competence based, nationally recognised qualifications - to gain them you demonstrate your ability to carry out certain skills or 'competences'. These can be specific to the job or more general, such as health and safety. Some of these skills a learner may have already, or they may need to be taught. Courses vary from subject to subject but it is typical for them to be a mixture of workplace experience and classroom teaching.
NVQs are available at 5 levels: 1 being fairly basic, 5 a very high standard. Not all subjects are available at all 5 levels.
City and Guilds compared with Cytech:
City and Guilds is a very long-established organisation. I think its roots were in engineering apprenticeships and similar. Its only Cycle Maintenance Course is level one. The skills assessed are listed here
Cytech is an arm of the Association of Cycle Traders so appears to specialise only in cycle maintenance training, which might be logical (although some on here might say that some lbs people would benefit from learning some interpersonal skills
) It's courses and assessment are offered at levels 1 - 3 but the wording about NVQs seems confusing. It says its courses are merging with NVQs whatever that means. I'm not clear if they are NVQs or just claimed to be equivalent. I didn't search the site in depth so I didn't see if there is a list of skills assessed. Their rising to level three implies they are more advanced than the NVQ level one.
If you google cycle maintenance training you will see there are all sorts of providers doing all sorts of courses including the CTC - I've no idea which are any good. Perhaps this will smoke out somebody who knows.
As nobody else is replying, this is what I know from my wife having been involved in NVQ assessing in another field completely. (She is a registered nurse and for some years was involved with training and assessing carers. She is currently in hospital so I have not been able to check all this with her.)
National Vocational Qualifications are competence based, nationally recognised qualifications - to gain them you demonstrate your ability to carry out certain skills or 'competences'. These can be specific to the job or more general, such as health and safety. Some of these skills a learner may have already, or they may need to be taught. Courses vary from subject to subject but it is typical for them to be a mixture of workplace experience and classroom teaching.
NVQs are available at 5 levels: 1 being fairly basic, 5 a very high standard. Not all subjects are available at all 5 levels.
City and Guilds compared with Cytech:
City and Guilds is a very long-established organisation. I think its roots were in engineering apprenticeships and similar. Its only Cycle Maintenance Course is level one. The skills assessed are listed here
Cytech is an arm of the Association of Cycle Traders so appears to specialise only in cycle maintenance training, which might be logical (although some on here might say that some lbs people would benefit from learning some interpersonal skills
) It's courses and assessment are offered at levels 1 - 3 but the wording about NVQs seems confusing. It says its courses are merging with NVQs whatever that means. I'm not clear if they are NVQs or just claimed to be equivalent. I didn't search the site in depth so I didn't see if there is a list of skills assessed. Their rising to level three implies they are more advanced than the NVQ level one.
If you google cycle maintenance training you will see there are all sorts of providers doing all sorts of courses including the CTC - I've no idea which are any good. Perhaps this will smoke out somebody who knows.
I did a C&G course last year
http://cyclewales.net/10dayC&G.html
I found it very well run and structured. It would probably be worth your while talking to Dewi Jones, the course provider to discuss your needs and asking his advice.
http://cyclewales.net/10dayC&G.html
I found it very well run and structured. It would probably be worth your while talking to Dewi Jones, the course provider to discuss your needs and asking his advice.
I'm booked to go on a Cytech level 2 course in April. This appears to me to be the practical part of the NVQ Level 2 course. I asked at my lbc and they told me they would see it as an adequate qualification to work in a lbc (I'm not sure at what level.) I am concerned not to waste what is a lot of money but the prospectus from Cytech and from ATG seem professional and reassuring. My dealings with ATG have been positive too. Has anyone here been on such a course? It looks as if there might be a number of us would welcome feedback. (Sorry, I used to work for the council)
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beachcomber
- Posts: 921
- Joined: 17 Jan 2009, 10:49am
- Location: North Yorks
I did my City & Guilds at The Bike Inn run by Alf and Teresa Webb at Spalding Lincs.
The whole course was brilliant and I also bought the parts to build another fixie from Alf at cost. He sells frames and parts he has had produced for him.
Alf supplies tools at a very reasonable price too.
If you are wanting to go into the cycle trade, Alf will advise on matters other than mechanical too. One of my group set up his own shop after the course and said Alf's advice was worth a fortune.
You can camp in their back garden.
They are a super couple with years of experience in the cycle shop game.
I have no hesitation is recommending them.
The whole course was brilliant and I also bought the parts to build another fixie from Alf at cost. He sells frames and parts he has had produced for him.
Alf supplies tools at a very reasonable price too.
If you are wanting to go into the cycle trade, Alf will advise on matters other than mechanical too. One of my group set up his own shop after the course and said Alf's advice was worth a fortune.
You can camp in their back garden.
They are a super couple with years of experience in the cycle shop game.
I have no hesitation is recommending them.
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pedalpower
- Posts: 19
- Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 9:49am
I fully concur with beachcomber. I also did my City & Guilds at The Bike Inn run by Alf and Teresa Webb at Spalding Lincs last year prior to cycling off half way around the world. It was the most enjoyable course I've attended in years. Alf and Teresa have a wealth of experience in cycle maintenance and the bike trade in general. Highly recommended.
Hey guys, thanks very much for your comments/advice/experiences, I really appreciate your input.
After spending today browsing the net and making plenty of phone calls, I've decided to start by taking the Cytech Level 1 course with PCJS in Milton Keynes (richards - you might be interested to know that they appear to be working in partnership with ATG, and just for the record I'm a local authority/council cycling instructor too, but unfortunately my course isn't until JUNE so won't have any feedback for you until then).
I've decided upon this course because my existing skills and knowledge are quite limited, and the Cytech Level 1 looks like a good comprehensive introduction to cycle mechanics. Also it's the cheapest I could find (around £400) and the shortest (3 days), so it shouldn't be too much for me to manage (both financially and in terms of absorbing/remembering knowledge). The Cytech course also leads to an NVQ.
I've had an awful lot of people recommending The Bike Inn, and Spalding is only a few miles from me. However (in my opinion) it seems like a long expensive course, not so good for a complete beginner to find out if they're suited to cycle mechanics. After what I've heard of Alf and Teresa, I think I'll seriously considering taking the C&G with The Bike Inn if my Cytech NVQ goes ok.
Thanks again for your replies everyone!
After spending today browsing the net and making plenty of phone calls, I've decided to start by taking the Cytech Level 1 course with PCJS in Milton Keynes (richards - you might be interested to know that they appear to be working in partnership with ATG, and just for the record I'm a local authority/council cycling instructor too, but unfortunately my course isn't until JUNE so won't have any feedback for you until then).
I've decided upon this course because my existing skills and knowledge are quite limited, and the Cytech Level 1 looks like a good comprehensive introduction to cycle mechanics. Also it's the cheapest I could find (around £400) and the shortest (3 days), so it shouldn't be too much for me to manage (both financially and in terms of absorbing/remembering knowledge). The Cytech course also leads to an NVQ.
I've had an awful lot of people recommending The Bike Inn, and Spalding is only a few miles from me. However (in my opinion) it seems like a long expensive course, not so good for a complete beginner to find out if they're suited to cycle mechanics. After what I've heard of Alf and Teresa, I think I'll seriously considering taking the C&G with The Bike Inn if my Cytech NVQ goes ok.
Thanks again for your replies everyone!
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Matt@ATG-Training
- Posts: 9
- Joined: 25 Mar 2009, 10:41am
Re: Difference between City & Guild and Cytech/NVQ
Hi all,
I've just come accross this post so thought I might be able to help shed some light on the matter, I'm not the biggest user of forums so apologies for being a realtive latecomer to the party!
I run the cycle training side of ATG Training where we deliver both Cytech and NVQ qualifications.
A lot of the advice that has been given above is pretty accurate and I find that very re-assuring that the training of mechanics is being taken so seriously and that so many of you have given such good recommendations.
PJCS and ourselves are the only providers of the Cytech qualification (the brand is owned by ACT) and we work together to make sure that the qualification is kept up to date and relevant to the industry.
Where we differ form PJCS is that we hold a national contract with the LSC (Learning Skills Council) which allows us to draw down funding to deliver the training and assessment at a greatly reduced cost to the individual. (Pete operates on a purely commercial basis whereas we can often secure money on your behalf, nice to get something back from the government for a change!) Clearly there would be no funding available for Cytech alone (it's not a nationally recognised qualification like a GCSE, A level, NVQ etc) so we have developed and NVQ qualification which includes the Cytech standards.
It means a great deal more paperwork for us (funding means we fall under the dreaded Ofsted) but means that the mechanic benefits from not only a Cytech award but gains an NVQ to boot! An NVQ will include some degree of peripheral skills too as I think one poster mentioned.
Cytech Technical One is the first rung of the ladder (worth noting that it does not result in an NVQ), details of course content can be found on our site (www.atg-training.co.uk), PJCS and the ACT's own website.
A level 2 qualification is the standard we'd like to see all mechanics achieving, again, specific course details can be found on the website.
We have also developed a level 3 qualification (wait for it....and developing a level 4!)
We have invested a huge amount of money over the last year or two on our training facilities too, we can train both in Aylesbury and Manchester plus can come out to train you given a few basic criteria are met (availability of suitable space, class sizes, tooling etc).
We are happy to train both mechanics from the trade and home mechanics too. We have worked with councils, the prison service, hire centres plus a huge amount of lbs. All our training staff are qualified both as teachers and mechanics so hopefully we can offer a very positive learning experience.
I stated at the beginning that PJCS and ourselves are the only accredited providers of Cytech, please bear that in mind when you see others aligning their training products to the standards. The ACT, PJCS and ATG Training have spent a lot of time and effort developing the courses over the last 6 or so years and work closely together to develop new standards and specialist courses.
Sorry for what has been a lengthy reply, it's hard to sum it all up in a few lines! I'm happy to hear from any of you if you need more information about what is available.
Regards
Matt
Head of Cycles
ATG Training
I've just come accross this post so thought I might be able to help shed some light on the matter, I'm not the biggest user of forums so apologies for being a realtive latecomer to the party!
I run the cycle training side of ATG Training where we deliver both Cytech and NVQ qualifications.
A lot of the advice that has been given above is pretty accurate and I find that very re-assuring that the training of mechanics is being taken so seriously and that so many of you have given such good recommendations.
PJCS and ourselves are the only providers of the Cytech qualification (the brand is owned by ACT) and we work together to make sure that the qualification is kept up to date and relevant to the industry.
Where we differ form PJCS is that we hold a national contract with the LSC (Learning Skills Council) which allows us to draw down funding to deliver the training and assessment at a greatly reduced cost to the individual. (Pete operates on a purely commercial basis whereas we can often secure money on your behalf, nice to get something back from the government for a change!) Clearly there would be no funding available for Cytech alone (it's not a nationally recognised qualification like a GCSE, A level, NVQ etc) so we have developed and NVQ qualification which includes the Cytech standards.
It means a great deal more paperwork for us (funding means we fall under the dreaded Ofsted) but means that the mechanic benefits from not only a Cytech award but gains an NVQ to boot! An NVQ will include some degree of peripheral skills too as I think one poster mentioned.
Cytech Technical One is the first rung of the ladder (worth noting that it does not result in an NVQ), details of course content can be found on our site (www.atg-training.co.uk), PJCS and the ACT's own website.
A level 2 qualification is the standard we'd like to see all mechanics achieving, again, specific course details can be found on the website.
We have also developed a level 3 qualification (wait for it....and developing a level 4!)
We have invested a huge amount of money over the last year or two on our training facilities too, we can train both in Aylesbury and Manchester plus can come out to train you given a few basic criteria are met (availability of suitable space, class sizes, tooling etc).
We are happy to train both mechanics from the trade and home mechanics too. We have worked with councils, the prison service, hire centres plus a huge amount of lbs. All our training staff are qualified both as teachers and mechanics so hopefully we can offer a very positive learning experience.
I stated at the beginning that PJCS and ourselves are the only accredited providers of Cytech, please bear that in mind when you see others aligning their training products to the standards. The ACT, PJCS and ATG Training have spent a lot of time and effort developing the courses over the last 6 or so years and work closely together to develop new standards and specialist courses.
Sorry for what has been a lengthy reply, it's hard to sum it all up in a few lines! I'm happy to hear from any of you if you need more information about what is available.
Regards
Matt
Head of Cycles
ATG Training
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Matt@ATG-Training
- Posts: 9
- Joined: 25 Mar 2009, 10:41am
Re:
richards wrote:I'm booked to go on a Cytech level 2 course in April. This appears to me to be the practical part of the NVQ Level 2 course. I asked at my lbc and they told me they would see it as an adequate qualification to work in a lbc (I'm not sure at what level.) I am concerned not to waste what is a lot of money but the prospectus from Cytech and from ATG seem professional and reassuring. My dealings with ATG have been positive too. Has anyone here been on such a course? It looks as if there might be a number of us would welcome feedback. (Sorry, I used to work for the council)
Thank you for that feedback richards, very reassuring to hear.
I appreciate that the ful Cytech Technical Two qualification is quite an outlay (it is an adequate qualification to work in an IBD, check out the jobs board on BikeBiz to see how many require it to even secure an interview). We have done a lot of work on reducing the number of days it takes to deliver Cytech qualifications as for a lopt of people time out in one of our workshops leaves you with less holiday allowance/ less earnings! We've also tried to make the course as modular as possible so often you don't have to take it all in one go, training can be built up over time as funds or time off allows.
I hope you enjoy your time with us, I'll try to swing by and say hello when you're in the workshop.
Thanks again for your comments.
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36781
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: Difference between City & Guild and Cytech/NVQ
Matt
A very interesting read. On the relationship between Cytech and the NVQ set-up, you have dealt with my own query and, more importantly, it seems you have bridged the gap in real life. The debate about the future of the traditional lbs regularly comes up on here and I think the fact that you are developing a modern qualification at shop management level can only help these places survive and prosper.
A very interesting read. On the relationship between Cytech and the NVQ set-up, you have dealt with my own query and, more importantly, it seems you have bridged the gap in real life. The debate about the future of the traditional lbs regularly comes up on here and I think the fact that you are developing a modern qualification at shop management level can only help these places survive and prosper.
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Matt@ATG-Training
- Posts: 9
- Joined: 25 Mar 2009, 10:41am
Re: Difference between City & Guild and Cytech/NVQ
Thanks thirdcrank.
I'm glad the post was of use.
We do try as much as we can to provide useful and real world training to lbs from entry level Cytech One through to the advanced technical areas such as fork servicing, full suspension design and set up, road and triathlon, advanced wheel building etc. All very good for the mechanic but still leaving a gap in training available to others- the ones who don't get their hands dirty!
We've been working over the last couple of years to develop management, customer service and the dreaded H&S training too plus the ACT and ATG are working on a retail qualification (visual merchandising, stock control, customer service etc)
All of this is available as part of an NVQ or as short, stand alone courses should people want to dip in and train on specific areas (trade and public alike are more than welcome). I'm always happy to hear from people who have ideas about specific training needs, things like hub gears/ gearbox bikes or electric bikes perhaps...
Anyway, I'll have bored you all senseless by now...
I'm glad the post was of use.
We do try as much as we can to provide useful and real world training to lbs from entry level Cytech One through to the advanced technical areas such as fork servicing, full suspension design and set up, road and triathlon, advanced wheel building etc. All very good for the mechanic but still leaving a gap in training available to others- the ones who don't get their hands dirty!
We've been working over the last couple of years to develop management, customer service and the dreaded H&S training too plus the ACT and ATG are working on a retail qualification (visual merchandising, stock control, customer service etc)
All of this is available as part of an NVQ or as short, stand alone courses should people want to dip in and train on specific areas (trade and public alike are more than welcome). I'm always happy to hear from people who have ideas about specific training needs, things like hub gears/ gearbox bikes or electric bikes perhaps...
Anyway, I'll have bored you all senseless by now...
Re: Difference between City & Guild and Cytech/NVQ
Matt, thanks very much for your reply, it's answered a lot of my questions and put my mind at ease over a few things. I'm booked to take the Cytech 1 course with PJCS in June and I'm very much looking forward to it. I expect I will need to gain the NVQ at some point, so will probably end up taking Cytech 2 later this year. Do you have any literature/brochures on the courses that you could send out to me please? Thanks again!
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Matt@ATG-Training
- Posts: 9
- Joined: 25 Mar 2009, 10:41am
Re: Difference between City & Guild and Cytech/NVQ
For literature see our website, pretty much all content is on there, courses and what is covered in each one plus an indication of cost.
Give our office in Manchester a call and Elaine will be hapy to answer any questions for you, give you dates that are available for training and help find a suitable course, whether you choose Aylesbury or Manchester.
Elaine will also be able to find out if you can gain any funding for the course too, always nice to save some money where you can!
You can call her on
0161 2306241
Give our office in Manchester a call and Elaine will be hapy to answer any questions for you, give you dates that are available for training and help find a suitable course, whether you choose Aylesbury or Manchester.
Elaine will also be able to find out if you can gain any funding for the course too, always nice to save some money where you can!
You can call her on
0161 2306241
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Matt@ATG-Training
- Posts: 9
- Joined: 25 Mar 2009, 10:41am
Re: Difference between City & Guild and Cytech/NVQ
By the way, were running a one day basic cycle maintenance course on either 27th or 28th April in Aylesbury for FREE!
The first 20 people to email me will be given a one day training course (based around Park Tool School) for free.
It's a good excuse to come and get your hands dirty and play with some great tools.
More details elsewhere on this site...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23161
Be good to see some of you forum users there...
The first 20 people to email me will be given a one day training course (based around Park Tool School) for free.
It's a good excuse to come and get your hands dirty and play with some great tools.
More details elsewhere on this site...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23161
Be good to see some of you forum users there...