CTC Yellow Jerseys

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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georgew
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Postby georgew » 26 May 2007, 9:22pm

PW wrote:Another vote for the winged wheel. The logo's a sad bit of modern marketing garbage.


+1

glueman
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Postby glueman » 27 May 2007, 8:30am

For a while the club persisted with the winged wheel and the splodge, the belt and braces appeal to old timers and the glossy future, a visual tautology. Why not use the old badge more confidently, make it bigger until it completely covers a cycling top with no edge showing?
I'd have one.

JohnW
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Postby JohnW » 27 May 2007, 11:40pm

Yeah - but for me it would have to be in hi-vis colours.

JohnW

PaulB
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Postby PaulB » 27 May 2007, 11:40pm

I have a winged wheel transfer on one of my bikes and it looks classy. The replacement logo is just awful and cannot be taken seriously - there is no way I will display it.

The cartoon bike carries no authority and is neither "hip" nor "trendy"; the word embarrassing springs to mind.

JohnW
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Postby JohnW » 27 May 2007, 11:43pm

That's a point - I had 'Winged Wheel' tranfers on my frames for a number of years - starting about 25 years ago - but as far as I know they are not produced anymore. I mean transfers rather than stickers.

JohnW

thirdcrank
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Postby thirdcrank » 28 May 2007, 12:00am

I'm pretty sure that 'when I was a lad' the lettering 'CTC' on the winged wheel was Gothic (if that's the right word - see the pic of a CTC appointed repairer's wall plaque - Graham Mills' obituary, p 20 of mag).

If I am right, at some point probably in the 1970's, that badge was updated to make the lettering easier to read as CTC.

...............................................................

I've just noticed that the token winged wheel on the front of the mag - near the bottom bracket - has the lettering I was trying to describe.)

JohnW
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Postby JohnW » 28 May 2007, 12:38am

Aye-up thirdcrank -

I think you're right. All my versions of the 'Winged Wheel' emblem (two ordinary pin-on badges, my 25-year membership badge and my commemorative 125 years of the CTC badge) together with the transfers remaining on frames before the transfers became unavailable, have the "old style" lettering - I don't know it's proper name.

JohnW

Kentish Man

Postby Kentish Man » 28 May 2007, 1:49pm

Paul Smith SRCC wrote:W

Image

.....the blue and yellow model was a limited edition and was popular with the members, although we only had a few made as we were told off about the design, especially for using the winged wheel badge, I think it was seen as being a bit to retro; which is why it was a limited edition :lol: .

Paul Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk



I really like this design. Several questions though (this started as 2 questions but is mushrooming!):
1. what would the minimum production run have to be, to get the price to a level of say £20 to £25?
2. Can sizes upto XXXL be accommodated?
3. What level of demand is there?
4. Would the CTC allow the use of the winged wheel given that a) it's CTC members who want the garment, and b) it should all be good promotion for the club?
5. If positive responses are forthcoming for the above, who would / could take on the task - the CTC itself? Paul Smith, would you be willing?

As for indicative demand - I would have one, possibly two (one short sleeve and one long?).

Can anyone set up a survey seeking responses to level of interest and range of sizes required?

JohnW
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Postby JohnW » 28 May 2007, 11:21pm

Hello Kentish Man -

I for one would be interseted within the price range that you suggest.

I often have a problem with buying clothes by post, in that I am quite a short chap with a more average girth, and I once bought a cycling jersey which fitted my chest to the measurement that I had taken, but it came down to the bottom of my shorts' leg!

The advantage of the jersey illustrated is that it is mainly yellow (crucial for being visible), whilst still retaining the club colours of yellow and blue. Yep, looks good to me, but I wouldn't wear it when riding my orange frame!!!!

JohnW

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Paul Smith SRCC
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Postby Paul Smith SRCC » 29 May 2007, 6:35pm

I could not find anyone who would make transfers at all, stickers yes but transfers no, shame because nearly everyone loved them

Paul Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk

JohnW wrote:That's a point - I had 'Winged Wheel' tranfers on my frames for a number of years - starting about 25 years ago - but as far as I know they are not produced anymore. I mean transfers rather than stickers.

JohnW
Last edited by Paul Smith SRCC on 29 May 2007, 8:05pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Paul Smith SRCC
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Postby Paul Smith SRCC » 29 May 2007, 7:12pm

Well Matt Mallinder as mentioned earlier is apparently holding a competition for a new jersey design, perhaps you could put in a proposal of your own. In answer to your questions:

1. what would the minimum production run have to be, to get the price to a level of say £20 to £25? Depends on the Company, some will charge a lot for artwork plus have quite a high minimum order, normally the more upmarket brands will expect this and being upmarket charge more as a result. The yellow and blue Jerseys we had made from one of the typical companies making club kit were £25.00, only a few were made, purely to market research the design and to calculate the possible demand. As a comparison to something that we have gone past the fact finding stage to the finished article then we charge £35.00 for our Italian made BikePlus jersey, but the Artwork alone cost us a quite a bit, as in low hundreds. Worth noting that the artwork is only charged once, not for repeat orders. A well designed set of garments may be in production for quite a long time, so with this in mind and with the quantities that the CTC organisation would require then set up costs would not be as much of a deterent as it would be for a DA section for example, who will order far less in comparison, making the set costs more prohibitive.

As to which price and quality you decide to go with takes some thought, we here for example chose the manufacturer Santini for our BikePlus kit, not the cheapest, yet quite a bit below the more expensive end of the market. I wanted clothing with our name on to be well made and designed yet good value, using high quality materials, infact anything with our brand name on I want to be of good quality and be seen as such, branding promotes an image after all and the same appplies to promoting the CTC, if you make the effort to get the designs and quality right it quite simply shows, the same applies if you don't.

In many ways it is just as important to decide what quality you want to go for as it is the artwork. In the case of the CTC branded items do you go for £20/25 per jersey and sell it on price, or indeed slightly higher quality and aim it at a slightly different market. The mid range garments will last longer and as a result look smarter for longer, which is more of an investment to the individual and of course looking smart is never a bad thing interms of reflecting and representing the image of the CTC. A scruffy CTC branded rider will deter as apposed to attract after all so I would not recommend the real cheap and cheerfull products for anything with a CTC logo. Of course it can also be argued that mid range prices will deter many from making the purchase, so I repeat it is worth doing a bit of research. Perhaps more leisure styled clothing that has become popular should also be considered, you could even run two manufacturers with the same artwork, one at the budget end and one mid range.

2. Can sizes upto XXXL be accommodated?: Many CTC riders are not exactly errrrrrrrrr racing whippets, some indeed do carry some relaxed muscle around the six pack area, so I would expect sizes upto XXXL to be ordered

3. What level of demand is there? As I mentioned earlier many sections have there own kit, but the CTC should also have universal kit available to all. Worth noting that if the kit is good then non CTC members may buy it, which may prompt them to join, I know it works for the Addiscombe Cycling Club, our sister shops stocks, displays and sells their Club kit and non members buy it as they simply like it, many then join the club as a direct result; of course it helps that they are local to us but you can see the theory.

4. Would the CTC allow the use of the winged wheel given that a) it's CTC members who want the garment, and b) it should all be good promotion for the club? Hopefull the CTC will indeed have a voting system to allow the members to chose the new designs, perhaps via their/this web site, so that the members can vote for what they want and if they want the winged wheel then that is what they should have. Perhaps with the competition being promoted via 'Cycle' magazine, the winner receiving a set of free kit perhaps, presented by Jon Snow wearing…. :roll:

5. If positive responses are forthcoming for the above, who would / could take on the task - the CTC itself? Paul Smith, would you be willing? Well as you can see yes we were willing to both design and get the jerseys made in small enough quantities to market test, although in reality this is now up to the CTC Organisation along with the new CTC Shop and not the old one to get the new designs put into production. Although of course we could get them made by someone like Santini, although I can't see that the new CTC Shop would either need or want to get BikePlus involved.

In conclusion the CTC Organisation represents a large selection of members and just as important they need to attract some new ones. To have a design that is suitable for all I believe will require a larger range, both something along the lines from what we recognise from the recent styles that were available as well as lesiure styling. When BikePlus started to run the shop we already had a range inherited from when the CTC Shop was still run in house, with two styles of rain jacket, a fleece, helmet cover as well as traditional jerseys, plus lycra as well as a baggy short. Perhaps at least one jersey could be made to appeal to the many enthusiasts who like the winged wheel design and another with a design that may be aimed at attracting new younger members who perhaps may not be into the retro styling.

When launching the competition the objectives could easily be established, for example, a CTC anniversary s/s jersey, mid weight and winter jacket and a comparible line up with a different design to appeal to different riders. Plus a baggy leisure styled short with modern styled baggy cut top to match.

If the new club kit is right it will be a success for everyone, if it is wrong the opposite applies, some time and effort needs putting into it to make sure that right it most definetly will be, after all the CTC organisation want it to be a success as do the new shop.

It will not be that not hard to get it right, by the same token it is quite easy to get it wrong.

Paul Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk

Kentish Man wrote:
Paul Smith SRCC wrote:W

Image

.....the blue and yellow model was a limited edition and was popular with the members, although we only had a few made as we were told off about the design, especially for using the winged wheel badge, I think it was seen as being a bit to retro; which is why it was a limited edition :lol: .

Paul Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk



I really like this design. Several questions though (this started as 2 questions but is mushrooming!):
1. what would the minimum production run have to be, to get the price to a level of say £20 to £25?
2. Can sizes upto XXXL be accommodated?
3. What level of demand is there?
4. Would the CTC allow the use of the winged wheel given that a) it's CTC members who want the garment, and b) it should all be good promotion for the club?
5. If positive responses are forthcoming for the above, who would / could take on the task - the CTC itself? Paul Smith, would you be willing?

As for indicative demand - I would have one, possibly two (one short sleeve and one long?).

Can anyone set up a survey seeking responses to level of interest and range of sizes required?

atoz
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Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 4:50pm

Yellow jerseys

Postby atoz » 31 May 2007, 11:15pm

I remember that CTC used to sell plain jerseys in a polyester mesh fabric. I still have two in red colour- I know you could get them in yellow. Pity they didn't have the CTC logo on- they seem to be indestructible, apart from a little inevitable fading over the years. They also are a bit heavier weight than is common nowadays, which makes them ideal for northern climes, or if it's windy.

I think in some respects CTC are off the ball, but as far as campaigning goes, they seem at last to be getting their **** together. Mind you, I'm not entirely convinced by some of the articles in Cycle- you know the sort of thing about you don't need lycra or proper cycling kit to ride to work. Some of us live in areas where even cycling down to get the paper can be a Cecil B DeMille production- so I'm not too convinced of the reality of it all. And some of us actually like wearing the stuff...

montmorency
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Postby montmorency » 1 Jun 2007, 12:14am

JohnW wrote:I'm with glueman absolutely - I couldn't have expressed it better myself.

To a man and woman, the members of our section feel the same. I can't remember a vote having been taken among the membership, asking whether to change from a well designed, recognisable, appropriate, well-loved (need I go on?)..........emblem to the non-descript infantile scribble of the new logo.

I'm obviously not up to date with my info, but does manybikes tell us that Matt Mallinder is running a competition to design a new jersy, or a new emblem? If it is yet another new emblem that is being considered, let me tell Matt that we don't need one. The 'Winged Wheel' is all that we need. It isn't broken - don't mend it. If there is a competition, is it open to all members? - I've not heard of it.

I suggest that there is a concensus for keeping the emblem that was familiar and part of our identity for over a century.



Also fully agree with these sentiments.
(I'm a new member of this forum, but been a CTC member for years, and a cyclist for long before that, and hope I'll always be a cyclist).


That whole period of re-branding...ugh.
Not to get political, but it seemed to co-incide with the re-branding that went along with certain of our political parties, and the feeling that image was everything.

Well, it wasn't, and isn't.


Then our magazine was stealthily renamed and downsized (I see that it's bigger again, hooray!). and, for all I know, the letters CTC no longer actually stands for anything (just like GKN no longer stands for Guest, Keen and Nettlefold, and BT no longer stands for British Telecomm).

I hope that is not symbolic of the organisation as well...


Regards,
M.

thirdcrank
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Postby thirdcrank » 1 Jun 2007, 8:26am

I've never been too bothered about badges and logos, or at least, not since the 1950's.

On the the other hand, clearly a lot of other people are and this neatly ties in with the vogue for retro.

Bearing in mind the comments made elsewhere on the forum about moaning etc., perhaps we might start a new section to promote our aims. I suggest "We'll whinge" as its name (and that will also do as our motto.)

glueman
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Postby glueman » 1 Jun 2007, 9:19am

thirdcrank wrote:
Bearing in mind the comments made elsewhere on the forum about moaning etc., perhaps we might start a new section to promote our aims. I suggest "We'll whinge" as its name (and that will also do as our motto.)


The gripes go way back, at least to Cycletouring and Complaining as the magazine title. The CTC lost its way when it stopped developing and backing the DA system and started seeing itself principally as a pressure group. Adopting the middle ground coincided with the new logo and the all-things-to-all-people ambition.
It missed a trick by seeing DAs as what they had become instead of what they could be - a diverse coalition of riders under an umbrella organisation. The winged wheel wasn't the problem but became a victim of the Big Idea. The organisation had trouble recognising what was retro ( a gratuitous nostlagia for the trappings of the past ) and the qualities and knowledge the best of the local groups engendered. I'm surprised it hasn't tried to rid itself of DAs entirely - or did I miss that one?

There's certainly a role for campaigning evidenced by the recent HC changes but political lobbying should be a given and not exclude grass roots cycling development. I hope the member groups initiative gets the backing it deserves and doesn't wither for want of a voice and a plan.