pedals, tandem and perfect kissing

[gaz]

Common wisdom is that the stoker keeps both feet on pedals. Not wishing to be indelicate, but that is not an option, we both have to start and stop with one foot down.

Not wishing to be indelicate but why is this not an option?

As I see it there are three possibilities for this:-

1. You doubt your own ability to hold the tandem upright on your own.

2. Your stoker doubts your ability to hold the tandem upright on your own.

3. You can't hold the tandem upright on your own.

In the ideal world you need to overcome problem 1 or 2 together. For my own part stopping and starting on the tandem is not as simple as on a solo. For very brief stops I'll put just one foot down. For any other stop it will be both. However short or long the stop some communication is required to ensure the pedals reach the right position for set off.

We accept that starting off again is never as simple as on a solo but the last thing either of us wants is to keel over sideways.

I don't think I'd want to try starting off from both of us having a foot down.

Incidentally it's double sided SPDs at the front, clips and straps at the rear.

If it's problem 3 then carry on as best you can

[JohnW]

Try a tandem experience day... They can offer all sorts of advice & you work these things out. If they can't, it might not be possible. If they can, it will be very rewarding.

p.s. I have nothing to do with them, but a clubmate highly recommends them.

Thanks Vorpal - I'm not thinking of tandemming, I just didn't want anyone who read my post to think that I knew anything about tandemming.

I did have a tandem - it was a Claud Butler, new about 1985ish - I converted the rear seat to take a child - with a frame around it made from old handlebars - and kiddicranks. It was great to take the children - we did our section's 50in4 standard ride on that - but that was a far cry from proper tandemming.

[Cunobelin]

Tandems are a learning process.

We used to have an issue with stopping!

My wife comes up to a juunction, and expects to stop. She therefore has the right pedal at 6 o'clock, stops, moves it to horizontal and sets off.

I approach a junction and put the pedal almost at 12 o'clock,expecting to accelerate through the junction. If I have to stop then I will do so and then adjust the pedals to a start position.

We solved this by putting the pedal geometry out of sync, then talking about what we are doing.

"Clear and going through" or "Stopping" help.

[AlanD]

Well there certainly is a lot to think about here and thanks for all the suggestions. When I posted i did originally think of asking for the post to be removed on the basis that it was unsupportive and tactless.
Anyway, in response to what has been suggested:

The tandem came supplied with the Shimano single sided pedals and we did not like them. I because I use double sided and had a spare pair. Stoker, because she wears trainers and the weight of the pedal meant that it was SDP side up, which was painful on the sole of the foot, so they were replaced with an ordinary open set.

With the strapless clips that I bought; she could put one foot in whilst stationary, but the other whilst moving was too difficult. Possibly because there are other things to do/think of whilst moving.

Yes there is a grassed area nearby with a combined path/cycleway on it. May retreat there to start again.

Considering the wisdom of introducing change on her own bike first. There has been complaints of 'not having any control' on the tandem.

Having an SDP on the right and an ordinary on the left, which is the kicking-off foot. Brilliant idea!

Crank length. Yes this has occurred to me. MrsD2B is the shorter of the two of us. However a change here means replacing two cranks/chainwheels on both sides and I am reluctant to throw lots of cash at this time, especially when there are other issues to settle first.

Keeping both feet on the pedals is not an option. Yes it is #3 Gaz. Written material presumes stoker is the lighter. Nuff said.

Bungee. Yes, worth a try

Tandem experience day. Yes this was suggested and did not get support on the basis that we can already do the basic mechanical stuff. I think that the underlying problem is that my stoker is a nervous rider, reluctant to take on new ideas. Her pilot, on the other hand, is an irritable, impatient, competent cyclist who finds it difficult to shrink his horizons and who makes an awful teacher. I think it's more a question of difference in perception, rather than mechanical dexterity.

Other problems yet to overcome:
Fear of speed.
Vocalizing terror when a car passes.
The concept that we are in the cars way and that we must defer to them in all conditions.
It's the pilot who decides when to stop pedalling.
You have to be pressing down on the pedal with all your strength, else you are not doing anything.
The rear pedals are not turning twice as fast as the front.
Yes, a cadence of 80-90rpm is normal.
Why change up out of bottom gear when reaching the brow of a hill? With this one there has been the view that you cannot change up out of bottom gear whilst accelerating downhill because the feet cannot feel any resistance; so one has to bring the speed down to almost standstill, until there is something for the feet to push against.

[RickH]

RE stoker keeping both feet on pedals - it doesn't actually matter if they are heavier as long as their centre of gravity is reasonably central and static.

I was out at the weekend with my wife (who is lighter than me) plus my 3 year old grandson in a child seat at the back. Between them I'm pretty sure they are significantly heavier than me but as long as they didn't wriggle around too much when stopped (which they didn't) balancing was not hard. Also, on an early rides (also with the grandson), we had trouble in traffic on time when I stopped & Mrs H put a foot down too and we couldn't get going again in a timely fashion so had to waddle to the side of the road to get sorted there. A few goes and she got the hang of keeping both feet up

Rick.

[[XAP]Bob]

Swap roles?

[BruceJ]

As Crepello recommends, try Shimano M324 pedals - they work for us - just make sure they're adjusted to allow for easy exit. Patience and practice will lead to success! If not already members, join the Tandem Club.

[beachcomber]

My experience with a new tanden stoker is as follows;

+1 for the bungee cord between pedals.

I had SPD pedals front and rat traps on the rear. HRH doesn't have SPD shoes and couldn't get her feet in the loose traps. With this method the pedals always presented themselves to her in the correct position and didn't cause any pedalling problem.

After a while we were able to do away with the bungee.

We have now found getting HRH to put her feet up prior to setting off is easier. We mount up me standing astride the bike and HRH in the saddle. She gets her feet in and brings the pedals round to the start position. I clip my right foot in and say "Ready and Pedal" HRH then gives a good push on the pedals as I lift into the saddle pushing down on the right pedal. Her push gives us momentum enough to get going without wobbling. Experience gained from time on the tandem has given her confidence to put her feet up and relax in the saddle. In turn this makes for a better handling bike for me.

Communication between rider and stoker is the key. Let the stoker know what you are doing, changing up/down, turning, free wheeling. If the stoker needs to rest or shift position in the saddle they should let the rider know. My biggest problem with my knees came from the stoker standing on the rearward pedal to shift back on the seat, as I pushed down on the front.
I also point out things of interest as we go along otherwise she misses them because I'm in her view.

We have a mirror fitted for the stoker to see behind, She likes that. Also a bar mounted bag for her to stow nibbles etc which she can get at on the move.

As a non cyclist HRH's introduction to tandems was a 110km audax. She loved it and I had to tell her to ease up as her competitive side meant she tried to over take almost everything even when going up hill. I would suggest that isn't the best way to introduce your beloved to tandems. Better to ride to nice cafes and garden centres and the like as one way of encouraging her to go out. A ride to some pleasant destination is more appealing to the novice cyclist than riding for ridings sake IMHO.

[goatwarden]

Changing the front crossover chainwheel to half the size of the rear would remove your difference of opinion over cadence. Cornering would however become like Russian roulette.

[Mr.Benton]

Try a tandem experience day... They can offer all sorts of advice & you work these things out. If they can't, it might not be possible. If they can, it will be very rewarding.

p.s. I have nothing to do with them, but a clubmate highly recommends them.

We first started with the tandem by going on a tandem experience day. We spent a good hour getting on and off the tandem, and stopping and starting. All the time we had someone next to us ready to catch us. Mrs B doesn't use toe clips on her own bike because she doesn't like them, but does use them on the back of the tandem. The morning spent at the tandem experience really helped us get used to the tandem and get used to each other riding it.

Hope you get the pedal problem sorted.

[mill4six]

My wife had a habit of stopping pedalling without warning which really wrenched my knee and after 100 miles was agony. I googled madly one afternoon and found a tandem with independent freewheels but sadly it was £5000! Perhaps you need a tandem tricycle.

[boblo]

I wouldn't put SPD's on her single, she'll do what we all do and fall over a couple of times. They'll go in the bin then.

If you really want her cliooed in, put some of your old SPD's on with the tension backed right off + old cleats. Everything will be nice and slack and she'll be able to get in and out more easily.

I wouldn't obsess about SPD's, I'd conventrate on finding 'a way' that suits you both (cadence, starting/stopping, calls, gears etc). It's usually fun finding these things out together. Sounds a bit like you're trying to 'educate her' ... no offence intended.

You could try her with a different (experienced) captain so she can see 'how it's done'. Part of the problem may be you're a bit uptight too?

[JohnCKirk]

Before I started using SPD pedals, I "practiced" on flat pedals, i.e. every time I stopped at a traffic light I'd twist my foot as if I was unclipping. That way, when I actually started with the SPDs, I already had the right habits. However, I also made sure that I unclipped in plenty of time at first, e.g. if I saw a traffic light ahead then I'd unclip while I was still 20 metres away and rest my foot on top of the pedal, to make sure that I didn't get caught out.

On my new bike, I've found that I can only unclip at certain times: the pedals have to be at "midnight" or "6 o'clock". If the crank is horizontal then I can't turn my foot far enough to get free. I don't remember that being a problem with my older bike, but maybe I just never noticed it. That would presumably make it harder to unclip when you have to liaise with someone else, so I certainly recommend putting the pedals on your wife's solo bike first.

[Vorpal]

Considering the wisdom of introducing change on her own bike first. There has been complaints of 'not having any control' on the tandem.

Having an SDP on the right and an ordinary on the left, which is the kicking-off foot. Brilliant idea!

Keeping both feet on the pedals is not an option. Yes it is #3 Gaz. Written material presumes stoker is the lighter. Nuff said.

Bungee. Yes, worth a try

Tandem experience day. Yes this was suggested and did not get support on the basis that we can already do the basic mechanical stuff. I think that the underlying problem is that my stoker is a nervous rider, reluctant to take on new ideas. Her pilot, on the other hand, is an irritable, impatient, competent cyclist who finds it difficult to shrink his horizons and who makes an awful teacher. I think it's more a question of difference in perception, rather than mechanical dexterity.

Other problems yet to overcome:
Fear of speed.
Vocalizing terror when a car passes.
The concept that we are in the cars way and that we must defer to them in all conditions.
It's the pilot who decides when to stop pedalling.
You have to be pressing down on the pedal with all your strength, else you are not doing anything.
The rear pedals are not turning twice as fast as the front.
Yes, a cadence of 80-90rpm is normal.
Why change up out of bottom gear when reaching the brow of a hill? With this one there has been the view that you cannot change up out of bottom gear whilst accelerating downhill because the feet cannot feel any resistance; so one has to bring the speed down to almost standstill, until there is something for the feet to push against.

The Tandem Experience Day doesn't help with just mechanical problems, but all sorts of things, including (if appropriate) both of you going out with others. No offence, Alan, but you've said you're not a good teacher; maybe Mrs. D2B can learn to be a stoker from someone else. Maybe she will take advice from an 'expert' that she either doesn't understand from you, or hasn't heard, for whatever reason. Mini V sometimes believes her teacher about something, when she won't believe me, just because the teacher is a teacher and not her mum.

Attaching the toeclips to the other pedals by bungee should help, but not many people can get their feet into moving toeclips. And Mrs. D2B is unlikely to be able to do it as quickly as you can. The same will go for SPDs. So once you've set off and can pause, give her a little time to sort out the left pedal. She can tell you when it's okay to pedal again.

It might be useful to put them on her solo bike first. Alice's thread on using SPDs for the first time viewtopic.php?f=7&t=52124&p=435296 has some good advice. If you've got a turbo trainer, she could try them on that, before going ont he road?

Get Mrs. D2B to take a Bikeability course, or get her a copy of Cyclecraft. Once she has a little experience being traffic, she should be more comfortable with your style of riding.

Slow down your cadence. I know it's difficult, but if she's not comfortable with the cadence, her discomfort will reflect itself in other aspects of your experience.

Can you swap positions? Try it someplace safe like an off-road facility or a park? Im not suggesting that that should be the normal arrangment, only that you could both learn from the experience.

Have you actually tried setting off with Mrs. D2B's feet on the pedals? I don't have any experience with an adult sized stoker, but one of the tandeming couples in my club has a heavier stoker than captain, and they seem to do okay with the traditional approach. That might be something else that the folks at Tandem Experience can help with.

You could also look for Tandem Club members in your area and go out with them. They can offer advice, and maybe provide a social aspect that will make things easier?

I think that I would have a hard time giving up enough control to be a stoker. There are only a couple of people that I trust sufficiently as cyclists that I would ride as their stokers, and Mr. V is not one of them! If we were to try tandeming, I think he'd have to be the stoker.

As a tandem captain, I have it easy. My stoker is Mini V, whose idea of control issues include manipulating mum & dad into letting her stay up late or have more ice cream.

[JohnW]

I'm going to unsubscribe this topic, but before I do................where does "perfect kissing" come into it? The idea is a good one, but not on a tandem - at least, not on the road.