Bicycle Sat Navs

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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al_yrpal
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby al_yrpal » 10 Dec 2012, 11:17am

Ayesha wrote: Both ways send me round and about miles further than I would have ridden by local area knowledge. It had weird ideas of what a 'Highway' was and weird ideas of roads suitable for cyclists.



Yup, that's exactly what is wrong with ALL satnavs that I have seen. The Garmin in my 1 year old car is rubbish and every other one I have tried has been pretty rubbish too, they all take you out of your way. On a bike its easy to stop and have a peke at a map to work out a sensible route i.e. Avoid that major road with all those stinking lorries, take in that stunning view, get closer to that church or windmill, or "that might be a nice pub". The best one has been Google Maps and with that, because it sucks power from your phone, you have to preload with maps in advance of your journey because there may not be a phone signal where you are. The only times I use them as a sat nav is when I am very close to my destination and confronted by a mass of unfamiliar streets, or when I am lost and want to know exactly where I am. If you love doing extra miles on busy roads, get a satnav!

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

Ayesha
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby Ayesha » 10 Dec 2012, 11:54am

al_yrpal wrote:
Ayesha wrote: Both ways send me round and about miles further than I would have ridden by local area knowledge. It had weird ideas of what a 'Highway' was and weird ideas of roads suitable for cyclists.



Yup, that's exactly what is wrong with ALL satnavs that I have seen. The Garmin in my 1 year old car is rubbish and every other one I have tried has been pretty rubbish too, they all take you out of your way. On a bike its easy to stop and have a peke at a map to work out a sensible route i.e. Avoid that major road with all those stinking lorries, take in that stunning view, get closer to that church or windmill, or "that might be a nice pub". The best one has been Google Maps and with that, because it sucks power from your phone, you have to preload with maps in advance of your journey because there may not be a phone signal where you are. The only times I use them as a sat nav is when I am very close to my destination and confronted by a mass of unfamiliar streets, or when I am lost and want to know exactly where I am. If you love doing extra miles on busy roads, get a satnav!

Al

Its the same with washing machines. There isn't one that's PERFECT.... :lol: You have to do some research and decide on the one that suits your needs best.

was8v
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby was8v » 10 Dec 2012, 11:59am

Ayesha wrote:PS. Garmin eTrex and Edge series units are NOT SatNavs. They are 'GPS enabled bicycle ( or exploring ) data loggers.' If recording where you've been and working out your performance is your thing, buy a Garmin.



I use an edge 200 as a navigation device. It requires you preload your route (make with bikeroute toaster, or a gpx downloaded from one of the many places).

It draws a line representing the route on the screen. When approaching a junction I just look at it to determine the direction to take. If I go off course accidentally it beeps at me to alert me.

Great to use off road too - since it has no maps you are not restricted to roads.

I find it sufficient, although it has no maps so if I find my self somewhere unknown it wont help me. I have mmtracker on my android to help me out in that situation.

Ayesha
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby Ayesha » 10 Dec 2012, 12:08pm

I have used eTrex legend on the base maps only.
I constructed the route on Mapsource, placing the viapoint metres AFTER the junction.
I used the 'compass / Pointer' facility to give me guidance, as when I approach the junction before the viapoint, the pointer swings to point at the viapoint.

That was a 'fun day out'... :lol:

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al_yrpal
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby al_yrpal » 10 Dec 2012, 12:17pm

Ayesha wrote:Its the same with washing machines. There isn't one that's PERFECT.... :lol: You have to do some research and decide on the one that suits your needs best.


My wife does the washing, that's her department! :lol:

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

mrjemm
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby mrjemm » 10 Dec 2012, 1:29pm

As I have already mentioned, I don't use mine for guiding me, except in the sense that it can tell me where I am if I need to know and can't be bothered to get my map out, but as others have said, it can navigate seemingly. I got mine at the beginning of a trip, and used it with only the base map, which is indeed basic, but for my purposes was fine for confirming my position and getting an idea of ETAs etc. (i.e. shall we keep going today, the town with a campsite we were thinking about is X miles away and my throat is crying out for one of those microbrews I see advertised over the road next door to that motel...).

I believe the Bryton 35 will navigate to pre-planned routes, even though it has no mapping facility- just shows you direction arrows or something. Their 50 model advertises turn-by-turn navigation, and is even available now with OS maps I believe. http://corp.brytonsport.com/products/rider50?lang=eng

Regarding my eTrex though, I got mine in US, having not intended to, seeing as it was a very nice price and toy frenzy took over. When I tried to buy a bike mount though, that was a different matter- I knew I'd seen them in the UK, so I thought I'd find one no problem... Yeah right. To start I put it in a mobile phone pouch, thinking I'd get a mount down the map nearer to California where Garmin is from... Nope. Didn't find one until back in the UK! And glad I mounted it on the top-tube rather than bars or stem, seeing as how often I now swap them out.

ukdodger
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby ukdodger » 10 Dec 2012, 1:35pm

Ayesha wrote:I had a Garmin eTrex Legend and then an Edge 605. I loaded Topo GB.
I live in eastern Birmingham and have the M42, M6 and A38(M) around me, as well as some quite dodgy major roads. Using Autorouting was a nightmare. To stay off the motorways, it was either 'by bike' or 'Avoid Highways'. Both ways send me round and about miles further than I would have ridden by local area knowledge. It had weird ideas of what a 'Highway' was and weird ideas of roads suitable for cyclists.

I bought that TomTom and gave the Garmins away. I'm happy as Larry.

However, I did use the Garmins with pre-planned routes. As long as the viapoints are not too numerous and in sensible positions, both units worked fine. It was 'impromptu journeys' where the Garmins failed.

PS. I'm taking the title of this thread at face value. "Bicycle Sat Navs". There aren't any. The closest is Garmin Edge with OpenCycleMaps, with VERY carefully arranged settings.
OR, a motorcycle unit from TomTom ( Rider ) or Garmin ( Zumo ) with external battery reserve ( and a LIGHTWEIGHT mount ). :wink: These units have TT maps regular udates or Garmin nuMaps regular map downloads.
They are both quite pricey.


Image

Isnt this a bicycle sat nav? It's not much use for anything else on wheels. The screen is to small. It has very well designed handlebar cradle mount which allows the unit to be removed quickly and easily which is useful when you pop into a shop as they're a nickable item. Also you can download the OSM maps for free into it which means you dont have to pay for map updates. There are only two drawbacks for me at least. It only holds twenty tracks of max five hundreds point each and Garmins after sales support is more or less non existent.

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philg
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby philg » 10 Dec 2012, 1:40pm

I use a Garmin Oregon 450 with Garmin City Navigator; Metroguide; OSM & OS1:50000 maps loaded.

It is perfectly useable as a bike sat-nav; admittedly after a steep learning curve

The auto-routing works fine (with care) or you can follow a pre-loaded track, or do both at once.

I had the Legend before that, and it is a reasonable lower-cost alternative, though be aware there are switch-off issues with this design.

Check out Audax GPS site for a useful info source

Ayesha
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby Ayesha » 10 Dec 2012, 2:10pm

ukdodger wrote:
Ayesha wrote:I had a Garmin eTrex Legend and then an Edge 605. I loaded Topo GB.
I live in eastern Birmingham and have the M42, M6 and A38(M) around me, as well as some quite dodgy major roads. Using Autorouting was a nightmare. To stay off the motorways, it was either 'by bike' or 'Avoid Highways'. Both ways send me round and about miles further than I would have ridden by local area knowledge. It had weird ideas of what a 'Highway' was and weird ideas of roads suitable for cyclists.

I bought that TomTom and gave the Garmins away. I'm happy as Larry.

However, I did use the Garmins with pre-planned routes. As long as the viapoints are not too numerous and in sensible positions, both units worked fine. It was 'impromptu journeys' where the Garmins failed.

PS. I'm taking the title of this thread at face value. "Bicycle Sat Navs". There aren't any. The closest is Garmin Edge with OpenCycleMaps, with VERY carefully arranged settings.
OR, a motorcycle unit from TomTom ( Rider ) or Garmin ( Zumo ) with external battery reserve ( and a LIGHTWEIGHT mount ). :wink: These units have TT maps regular udates or Garmin nuMaps regular map downloads.
They are both quite pricey.


Image

Isnt this a bicycle sat nav? It's not much use for anything else on wheels. The screen is to small. It has very well designed handlebar cradle mount which allows the unit to be removed quickly and easily which is useful when you pop into a shop as they're a nickable item. Also you can download the OSM maps for free into it which means you dont have to pay for map updates. There are only two drawbacks for me at least. It only holds twenty tracks of max five hundreds point each and Garmins after sales support is more or less non existent.


I think the GPS 60 is marketed as an 'On the Trail' handheld GPS. The owner could attach it to a bicycle, if they wish.

You will find the Edge series under the heading 'Sports / cycling' and they are called GPS Enabled cycle computers. The Edge 800 boasts "Turn-by-turn" instructions, but this is only IF appropriate maps are loaded.
You have to go to Garmin's Automotive section to read the words 'Sat' and 'Nav'.

The difference is,,, A handheld 'Trail' unit or 'Sports / cycling' unit accepts a 'one-shot' map, ie 1:50k Discoverer; and a SatNav accepts nuMaps which are regularly updated to show newly constructed roads.
Clever cyclists get round this by purchasing Third Party maps such as OpenCycleMaps; who update and re-issue maps similar to how Garmin operate nuMaps for their Nuvi and Zumo ranges.

If I was to 'Start over' I'd buy an eTrex 30 and download OpenCycleMap, checking for updates on a regular basis.
Not that I'm unhappy with TT Rider. Its a useful piece of kit for my usage.

ukdodger
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby ukdodger » 10 Dec 2012, 2:22pm

[/quote]

If I was to 'Start over' I'd buy an eTrex 30 and download OpenCycleMap, checking for updates on a regular basis.
Not that I'm unhappy with TT Rider. Its a useful piece of kit for my usage.[/quote]

Dont you have to buy those though? This is for free, worldwide and updated:

http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/

mrjemm
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby mrjemm » 10 Dec 2012, 2:32pm

So is it pedantry regarding the sales bumf being adverse to using the term satnav then Ayesha? :wink:

For me the whole GPS/Satnav thing is quite amusing in how the naming has become accepted through common usage. SatNav means Satellite Navigation, right, so anything GPS cabable is a SatNav system. But seemingly through user expectation, this term has been whittled down to describing a system that does all the work for you, and rather than giving you a coordinate to compare to a map, it now shouts at you every little thing you have to do.

On the marine side of things, where I come from (work with gpssssss), it was always that a chart (map) was your primary navigation tool, and gps was one source of positioning to use when using the chart. Now charts have been largely abandoned, and commercially only there for legal reasons a lot of the time, and in the leisure world more and more boaters are abandoning paper all together, and relying solely on their little grey boxes that go bleep. Ugh. Half of them probably don't know what a buoy looks like until they hit them now. Harumph.

Oh by the way, I found that Cycle streets on Android now has all UK downloadable for offline. It's a big file, but fits happily in any micro SD card you may use. Not tried on my phone (got the eTrex for that stuff) but have put into my tablet. Should work ok on phones I guess, but of course, it will suck batties.

Ayesha
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby Ayesha » 10 Dec 2012, 2:43pm

I guess its a 'trades description' thing. If Garmin were to call Edge 800 a 'SatNav' buyers would expect it to do what a SatNav does, which it doesn't 'out of the box'.
Garmin like us to spend another £199 on GB Discoverer to make it capable of guiding the user to an address.

Purchase a Zumo 220 Motorbike Navigator and it does the Satellite Navigation thing 'out of the box'.

Anyway, if I was to start over, I'd purchase a Garmin eTrex 30 and give a Third Party map website a donation for using their hard work. :wink:

mrjemm
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby mrjemm » 10 Dec 2012, 2:58pm

But that trade description thing only arises from developed expectations which are really kinda misplaced. I am sure there is no official definition of 'satnav' that includes the features being discussed. Blooming Joe Public and his demands!

Sounds like the Bryton 50OS is a real good deal then at £280 including Navteq maps and OS 1:50k.

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... s-12-46740

Definately a good choice if you do start again... 8)

(Must make donation when I am back home, especially as I plan to download 2 more countries when I get a chance).

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philg
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby philg » 10 Dec 2012, 3:05pm

mrjemm wrote:Sounds like the Bryton 50OS is a real good deal then at £280 including Navteq maps and OS 1:50k.

It might well be a good deal but be warned about the OS1:50k maps - IME they are unusable on a typical GPS - the screen resolution too poor & screen size too small.

Unlike the Garmin or OSM maps which scale perfectly from street to planet view, the OS maps are basically pictures and are only viewable at a couple of zoom levels. Zoom in too far and you just get a blur of pixels; too far out and it's a jumbled mess.

If you must have OS maps then I think the Memory Map or Satmap are better choices. YMMV

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BeeKeeper
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Re: Bicycle Sat Navs

Postby BeeKeeper » 10 Dec 2012, 3:11pm

Drake wrote: So i was "encouraged" to purchase a sat nav(tom tom), and i must admit my views on this technology has changed .
So this has made me wonder how good cycle sat navs are . Are they similar to motoring varieties . . i.e with similar displays etc.


I too have found car SatNavs excellent for many purposes, for example they excel at finding a hotel or business address in the middle of a city I have not been to before and best of all, they allow me to focus on driving and not have to drive with one hand while reading a map with the other. (Which of course I never did Officer...)

For getting around locally I don't bother as I know better routes.

However, I am not aware of a SatNav for bikes which you can use in the same way and that is because choice of route on a bike is not just more difficult but also to a large degree a personal thing - I would avoid busy roads like the plague but others seem happy to ride along, for example, the A38 through Devon. So even where the device can plan a route for you it may not take you along roads you are comfortable with.

To the best of my knowledge to get the best out of a GPS enabled device on a bike (assuming you want it to take you somewhere as opposed to you just riding along and the device recording where you have been) you have to pre-plan your route on a PC using a variety of tools, including free websites such as bikeroutetoaster. The screen on bike-sized GPS devices are just too small to see anything other than a tiny section of the route or in some cases they don't show a map at all.

Once you have your pre-planned route you can upload it to your GPS and then either through a moving map or turn-indicators it will do its best to guide you to where you wanted to go. However, as with car GPS devices, be prepared for the thing taking you down a blind alley, so to speak. You can't switch off your brain as roads can alter faster than the maps.

For what it's worth, I uses a SatMap Active 10. These have come down in price a lot recently but as they seem to be all sold out that is not much help I guess! It has a proper moving map (in this case 1:50K OS mapping) and can both record details of the journey but also, and very importantly for what I want it for, accept a pre-planned route and display it as an overlay on the map. It came with a proper bike mounting and has proved very robust and weather-proof. It uses buttons for control which are much easier to use when riding than a touch-sensitive screen as you can find them without having to look down once you are familiar with the thing.

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