Standover measurement

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Standover measurement

Postby meic » 2 Apr 2013, 12:54pm

ron2old wrote:I have BB7 brakes but they just squeak w he never they feel like it don't even have to be braking (embarrassing ). Went back to shop with it they sold me a can of disc cleaner for £6. I used that every day for a fortnight , until the can ran out. The shop then suggested I use white spirit to clean the rotors. Could be cheap rotors along with the cheap wheels. I'm just fed up with it, caliper brakes don't have this problem so on my next bike it will be calipers. You must be lucky because the bike shop said its a common problem with discs especially in bad weather.


Mine only squeaks when I am pedalling, it gives my ears a rest when I am coasting.

If there is enough cable pull to spare then backing off the pads with the adjusters will stop the contact and the squeak. It may be that one pad is too close and the other too far away.
Backing off too far will also stop your braking. :mrgreen:
Yma o Hyd

Ayesha
Posts: 4192
Joined: 30 Jan 2010, 9:54am

Re: Standover measurement

Postby Ayesha » 2 Apr 2013, 4:59pm

reohn2 wrote:
Ayesha wrote:........ The 'quicky' method which seems to have worked for 100 years is the FWS being hidden.


Bunkum!
And it's bunkum because there are drop bars with differing reaches,people who like to ride different toptube/stem length combinations.People with all kinds of different arm/torso combination ratios.
There are also people who like to ride stretched out and people who like to ride with the h'bars closer whether those h'bars are drops(of varying reach) or straights of varying shapes widths and designs.
Even if your Lumbar Vertebae is at 45 degrees.


http://www.giant-road-bike.com/index.ph ... ng-issues/

I always thought Mike Burrows talked out of his ass.

User avatar
breakwellmz
Posts: 1982
Joined: 8 May 2012, 9:33pm

Re: Standover measurement

Postby breakwellmz » 2 Apr 2013, 9:42pm


reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Standover measurement

Postby reohn2 » 2 Apr 2013, 10:10pm

Ayesha wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Ayesha wrote:........ The 'quicky' method which seems to have worked for 100 years is the FWS being hidden.


Bunkum!
And it's bunkum because there are drop bars with differing reaches,people who like to ride different toptube/stem length combinations.People with all kinds of different arm/torso combination ratios.
There are also people who like to ride stretched out and people who like to ride with the h'bars closer whether those h'bars are drops(of varying reach) or straights of varying shapes widths and designs.
Even if your Lumbar Vertebae is at 45 degrees.


http://www.giant-road-bike.com/index.ph ... ng-issues/

I always thought Mike Burrows talked out of his ass.

You said it :)
-----------------------------------------------------------

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Standover measurement

Postby reohn2 » 2 Apr 2013, 10:29pm

ron2old wrote:I have BB7 brakes but they just squeak w he never they feel like it don't even have to be braking (embarrassing ). Went back to shop with it they sold me a can of disc cleaner for £6. I used that every day for a fortnight , until the can ran out. The shop then suggested I use white spirit to clean the rotors. Could be cheap rotors along with the cheap wheels. I'm just fed up with it, caliper brakes don't have this problem so on my next bike it will be calipers. You must be lucky because the bike shop said its a common problem with discs especially in bad weather.

You don't need to use disc cleaner anywhere near that frequent,I've had a can of it for almost four years and there's still plenty left.You can also use cellulose thinner or nail polish remover to get the pads or rotors really clean but TBH they don't need it that often.
The bike shop are talking rubbish,it's all down to set up and adjustment.If the rotors aren't bent/out of true,easily checked by spinning the wheel and looking carefully.
Follow this video to set up the caliper:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NasGJFtgq0A

BTW, I've not been lucky with my BB7's I set them up from the outset.Many other people do it to,it ain't hard,they're noted for how good they are.The ones on the tandem with 203mm rotors can stop it with 160kgs on board quicker than other tandem braking system I've ever used,and I've tried a good few.
Once they're tuned up they're unbeatable,the only time they squeal is if it's wet or damp and I haven't touched the lever for a mile or three,the first squeeze I may get a leettle squeal.
-----------------------------------------------------------

ron2old
Posts: 176
Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 11:46am

Re: Standover measurement

Postby ron2old » 3 Apr 2013, 12:15am

You would think that when you pay £1000 for a new bike from a bike shop that any setup or such like would have been done. I have'nt touched the brakes since buying the bike apart from having new expensive BB7 spefic brake pads put in to try and stop squeeking. The one's that came with bike need replacing as soon as possible apparantely because there very cheap and are put on just to get the bike cost down to within the bike to work scheme according to salesman. I did'nt buy it on bike to work scheme but now wish I had bought a bike a little more expensive so that no shortcuts were used in the building of the bike. (Is the btws a good thing because of this downgrading trick that all manufacturers are adhering to to reach the magical btws figure).Yes I can reduce the squeel slightly if I back the brakes of to almost not working but does'nt that defeat the object of having disc brakes in the first instance. The shop assure me that it will all go away when the warmer dryer weather arrives. So roll on Summer. Unless I finally out the bike before then and buy my second bike as a much wiser man.

Ayesha
Posts: 4192
Joined: 30 Jan 2010, 9:54am

Re: Standover measurement

Postby Ayesha » 3 Apr 2013, 7:14am

reohn2 wrote:You said it :)


Strangely, some of the worlds most renowned bike fitting gurus, coaches and cycling professionals recommend the 'hidden FWS' as a guide to handlebar position.
But then again r2, "even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth" ( in the opinion of the minority ).

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Standover measurement

Postby reohn2 » 3 Apr 2013, 8:12am

Ayesha wrote:
reohn2 wrote:You said it :)


Strangely, some of the worlds most renowned bike fitting gurus, coaches and cycling professionals recommend the 'hidden FWS' as a guide to handlebar position.
But then again r2, "even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth" ( in the opinion of the minority ).


Whatever you say :)

PS,I gave my explanations in a previous post.
-----------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
CREPELLO
Posts: 5558
Joined: 29 Nov 2008, 12:55am

Re: Standover measurement

Postby CREPELLO » 3 Apr 2013, 8:37am

ron2old wrote:You would think that when you pay £1000 for a new bike from a bike shop that any setup or such like would have been done. I have'nt touched the brakes since buying the bike apart from having new expensive BB7 spefic brake pads put in to try and stop squeeking. The one's that came with bike need replacing as soon as possible apparantely because there very cheap and are put on just to get the bike cost down to within the bike to work scheme according to salesman.
I wouldn't really expect a 5 star service from a shop like Evans. However, they should have given the bike a free first service after a few hundred miles or so (LBS's do), which is expressly for adjusting things like brakes and bearings, after the parts have bedded in.

I'm surprised that the pads that came with the BB7 brakes weren't Avid BB7 specific. Anyhow, with a situation like this, you only need to post a thread on here to get the right advise on pad type.

When I had awful brake squeal on my old Deore front disc's I plumped for Koolstop (can't remember compound now). Apart from a when it's damp, they've stopped squealing. I find it helps to get the brake temp up by finding a fast steep hill to burn the crud off.

Re-aligning the callipers on the frame mounts may help balance out any pad bias.

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 13411
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Standover measurement

Postby 531colin » 3 Apr 2013, 8:40am

ron2old wrote:You would think that when you pay £1000 for a new bike from a bike shop that any setup or such like would have been done. I have'nt touched the brakes since buying the bike apart from having new expensive BB7 spefic brake pads put in to try and stop squeeking. The one's that came with bike need replacing as soon as possible apparantely because there very cheap and are put on just to get the bike cost down to within the bike to work scheme according to salesman. I did'nt buy it on bike to work scheme but now wish I had bought a bike a little more expensive so that no shortcuts were used in the building of the bike...............


I can't let that go without comment.
Pinnacle is Evans' own brand. The whole of the difference between the factory gate price in the Far East and the retail price in the UK (less tax) goes to the Evans chain. They can easily change the spec. to fit better pads and cheaper handlebar tape, or whatever.
Contrast that to the position of the independents....if you want to stock a "brand" (that's somebody who spends enough on advertising) , they dictate what you buy, when you buy, what stock you hold, how you pay, what you can sell alongside their bikes. The bikes can arrive at your shop in a dreadful condition from the factory, a smirking teenaged "sales rep" running around in a flashy car will tell you that's your problem.
You know all the "manufacturer" is doing is "designing" the bike (that's pick and mix from whatever their Far Eastern factory is offering this year) and keeping the boxes in a warehouse somewhere for as short a time as possible, because if you want to sell their brand its your capital that finances the stockholding.....and you make less per bike than they do.
And they all fit cut-price components where they think nobody will notice. It used to be square taper BBs....now they have all but gone, its external BBs, the advantage is quicker assembly in the factory, and the component manufacturers have made sure they get their slice of cake by making it all part of the chainset, so if your "manufacturer" wants "the look~" of a "brand" chainset, they have to have a "brand" BB as well. The downside for the end user is that a "brand" external BB wears out quicker than a generic square taper.
Last edited by 531colin on 3 Apr 2013, 9:09am, edited 1 time in total.

Mark1978
Posts: 4912
Joined: 17 Jul 2012, 8:47am
Location: Chester-le-Street, County Durham

Re: Standover measurement

Postby Mark1978 » 3 Apr 2013, 8:53am

CREPELLO wrote:]I wouldn't really expect a 5 star service from a shop like Evans. However, they should have given the bike a free first service after a few hundred miles or so (LBS's do), which is expressly for adjusting things like brakes and bearings, after the parts have bedded in.


When buying my Trek 2.1 I commented to the LBS that a friend of mine had problems with his 2.1 which he had just bought from Evans, that the chain kept dropping off the front. He just said that that would almost certainly be because they just got it out of the shipping box and handed it over and didn't do basic checks to make sure things were adjusted - of course he's going to make his shop sound good ;)

On the subject of first service, apparently when I take my bike in for it they will do the service in front of me and talk me through what they are doing and why - which should be interesting :)

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Standover measurement

Postby reohn2 » 3 Apr 2013, 8:56am

ron2old wrote:You would think that when you pay £1000 for a new bike from a bike shop that any setup or such like would have been done. I have'nt touched the brakes since buying the bike apart from having new expensive BB7 spefic brake pads put in to try and stop squeeking. The one's that came with bike need replacing as soon as possible apparantely because there very cheap and are put on just to get the bike cost down to within the bike to work scheme according to salesman. I did'nt buy it on bike to work scheme but now wish I had bought a bike a little more expensive so that no shortcuts were used in the building of the bike. (Is the btws a good thing because of this downgrading trick that all manufacturers are adhering to to reach the magical btws figure).Yes I can reduce the squeel slightly if I back the brakes of to almost not working but does'nt that defeat the object of having disc brakes in the first instance. The shop assure me that it will all go away when the warmer dryer weather arrives. So roll on Summer. Unless I finally out the bike before then and buy my second bike as a much wiser man.


TBH I think the salesman is mistaken at best and a liar at worst,and IMO the shop is just squeezing you for money,if you are not prepared for a little self adjustment and maintenance you're at the mercy of others' if those others are unscrupulous you can be in the do,do and poorer in the bargain .
Brakes,all brakes,come with pads fitted at the factory,Avid make pads and brakes so fit the same pads to the calipers at the factory,unless those are swapped at some time at the bike building factory,which would be highly unlikely,you would have Avid Sintered pads fitted,it's their standard production pad.
There are two types of disc pads that I've used Organic(Soft),Sintered(hard).The O's tend to wear a bit quicker and bed in quicker.
S's take a little longer to bed in and tend to squeal more though not appreciably but last longer.
Both types last a very long time on road/mild off road bikes.
Both types are fit for purpose.
I can only recommend that you set up the brakes as per video linked to,it's a simple procedure that anyone can do,in fact IMO,it's something everyone should know how to do for optimum brake operation.
You mentioned "cheap discs" it appears going off the photos of your bike that it's fitted with Avid G2 CS rotors(I have the same fitted to all three of my disc equiped bikes) these aren't cheap tat they're good kit.
Providing they aren't bent/warped/buckled there's not reason to believe they're the cause of brake squeal.
BTW If you lived close to me I'd offer some practical help.
-----------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
breakwellmz
Posts: 1982
Joined: 8 May 2012, 9:33pm

Re: Standover measurement

Postby breakwellmz » 3 Apr 2013, 9:35am

This may be no help whatsoever not being familiar with bicycle disc brakes,but i can remember putting Copperslip grease on the back of motorcycle disc pads to stop brake squeal.

Brucey
Posts: 42900
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Standover measurement

Postby Brucey » 3 Apr 2013, 10:00am

reohn2 wrote:
Ayesha wrote:
reohn2 wrote:You said it :)


Strangely, some of the worlds most renowned bike fitting gurus, coaches and cycling professionals recommend the 'hidden FWS' as a guide to handlebar position.
But then again r2, "even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth" ( in the opinion of the minority ).


Whatever you say :)

PS,I gave my explanations in a previous post.


I agree with R2;

the method may have some narrow range of application where it appears to work, given a few givens about (road racing bike) frame geometry etc.

But to extrapolate from that to a wider application is clearly complete and utter nonsense.

If I change my head angle and fork offset, and keep the same trail, the front hub moves an inch forwards (say). Am I meant to buy a new stem because of this...?

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ayesha
Posts: 4192
Joined: 30 Jan 2010, 9:54am

Re: Standover measurement

Postby Ayesha » 3 Apr 2013, 10:12am

OK, I submit. There will always be bike types where the rule does not apply.

In the meantime, could you write a few short paragraphs explaining the 'correct' method of determining the position of a bicycle's handlebars?
And why the bike's reach is more important than the seat tube length. And how the only importance of 'standover height' is that it should not clash your knackers when you step off the front of the saddle.
Last edited by Ayesha on 3 Apr 2013, 10:15am, edited 1 time in total.