Maximum heart rate

[ANTONISH]

In the last couple of days - in the light of the Andrew Marr incident with the rowing machine - Dr Mark Porter (Times and radio4) has asserted that one should never exceed the rate given by the formula; 220 - age.
As I'm now 72 this gives me a maximum of 148 bpm.
I don't often use my heart rate monitor but I know this won't get me up a decent hill (at least with the rest of my clubmates).
Does anyone know where this formula came from? and what the scientific evidence is for it.?
could it be just another simplistic formula like BMI?

[Mick F]

NEVER exceed?
220 - 60 gives me 160bpm ....................... only 160bpm!
I may have to slow down a bit up the Cornish hills.

Checking on my stats, I've exceeded 160 on fourteen of my rides only this year. Max was 172.

Maybe Dr Porter is thinking about non-cyclists?

[Mr. Viking]

I always thought the 220-age was only ever meant to be a rough estimate for working out training session intervals. I refuse to believe it should be used as an absolute rule, I imagine Dr. Porter simply felt under pressure to quote a figure. I believe taller people tend to have higher heart rates anyway, that's my excuse at least. I am not a doctor.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
One rule need only apply, that is don't ever exercise when you have an infection of the upper respiratory tract.
I had a particular bad cold a few weeks ago lasted for three weeks, felt unwell and heart rate resting was for a few days was 90
Bearing in mind that my norm would be 46 - 51 I probably had some virus etc. thats 6 - 8 weeks back for me.
Although moderate exercise is aparrently good for immune system , high and low tend the other way. A measure is to look at resting heart rate once a day and if ellivated I would tend not to touch my bike. Even for us old farts exercise on bike brings out the devil in us
When fit the norm rule does'nt really apply to cyclist as heart rate is commonly exceeded not more neccsarily than other sports but just can be kept high through continual riding for an hour or more. Other sports tend to not last that long at that level and stop and start, cadence is a factor hear. which only fast running could match but for short periods, or extreme heavy lifting.
Its a person specific thing, I.M.O.

[Whippet]

I read an interview with the guy who came up with that formula. He said it was never meant to be used by individuals as the bible as to what their max heart is, only a guide as to what the average is amongst a group of individuals. He said it shouldn't be used by individuals for their training, he appreciated that max heart rates vary greatly between individuals and that people should establish their own max heart rates for training.

In other words, this doesn't sound like good advice from the doctor in the original post.

[Grandad]

One rule need only apply, that is don't ever exercise when you have an infection of the upper respiratory tract.

Many years ago we had an over enthusiastic club member who did just that. I don't know details of the consequent problem but he died about a year later whilst waiting for a heart transplant.

[Ray]

Most training programmes based on heart-rate use calculations from an individual's maximum derived from actual tests rather than a theoretical formula such as 220 minus age. These tests require you to make an extreme effort, typically being asked to sprint flat out after several minutes of climbing at a gradually increasing pace. As a 70 year old long-time cyclist I can fairly readily get into the 160s without too much distress, but feel somehow that 'at my age' I should avoid going absolutely full-out, particularly when hill-climbing. I'd quite like to know what my maximum is, but I don't really want it to be the last thing I do!

Advice to keep below a certain bpm does not take into account what are often wide individual differences. I suspect that most doctors would urge caution, especially with older people, because there are so many unknowns, including infections and underlying heart issues. So, except under close observation (eg being monitored in a lab with medical teams on hand), I'm going to stop short of the red zone. Anyway, there are other methods of calculating training zones, which don't require going to the very edge!

Ray

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

One rule need only apply, that is don't ever exercise when you have an infection of the upper respiratory tract.

Many years ago we had an over enthusiastic club member who did just that. I don't know details of the consequent problem but he died about a year later whilst waiting for a heart transplant.

Its a pretty well documented fact, and about 25 years old too.
Heart attack heart damage etc,etc, your mate might well have had a underlying heart fault, but even if he did'nt I would not risk it now.
Its like hyperventillating, practiced by me and my mates when snorkel diving it works to stay submerged longer but on a odd accasion you will pass out.

[Mick F]

I was keeping half an eye on my HR readout this morning on my ride and I find I have a question .....

Sometimes I feel my heart pounding hard as I'm climbing a steep hill - it happened today so I looked at my HR.
It read 141bpm - not very high, but my heart and lungs were working very hard.

Later, I'm pressing on - against the wind on the level - and my HR is 145bpm but not pounding and I'm feeling relaxed even though I'm working hard. Earlier, I was climbing out of the valley at 156bpm but my heart wasn't pounding.

My question is:
Can a heart be working harder at a LOWER heart-rate than at a higher HR?
Is it like cadence and pedalling? Fast twitch muscles vs slow twitch?
Is it like pedalling when you can pedal hard and slower as opposed to pedalling faster and lighter?
Is HR the be-all and end-all of the heart as a pump?
Can it not pump hard, but slower?

[Indeboat]

I have noticed that when i check my blood pressure, there seems to be a fairly close relationship between pulse rate and blood pressure.
If i had a low reading for blood pressure more often or not my pulse rate was higher,and if my blood pressure was higher then my pulse rate could be lower.
Being an engineer i think of it like hydraulics,restricted flow needs higher pressure to move the same amount of fluid to the desired point,easy flow needs lower pressure.
Don't no how this has anything to do with your question so please take no notice of me.

[Mick F]

That's ok.
I was thinking about it from an engineering perspective.

Pumps can have different strokes. Longer stroke for the same bore gives more flow than a shorter stroke for the same reciprocation speed.

I suppose I'm asking, can the heart vary its stroke?

[honesty]

In the last couple of days - in the light of the Andrew Marr incident with the rowing machine - Dr Mark Porter (Times and radio4) has asserted that one should never exceed the rate given by the formula; 220 - age.
As I'm now 72 this gives me a maximum of 148 bpm.
I don't often use my heart rate monitor but I know this won't get me up a decent hill (at least with the rest of my clubmates).
Does anyone know where this formula came from? and what the scientific evidence is for it.?
could it be just another simplistic formula like BMI?

Its a pity the incident with Andrew Marr was rubbish. There is no evidence to support his assertion, and given that its a political news presenter who made it rather than a qualified doctor I'm quite happy to ignore it.

[Mr. Viking]

Its a pity the incident with Andrew Marr was rubbish. There is no evidence to support his assertion, and given that its a political news presenter who made it rather than a qualified doctor I'm quite happy to ignore it.

I did think it was silly that excessive exercise was blamed. Perhaps he was more likely to have a stroke than most people by bad luck, especially considering his high stress job. Perhaps it would have happened earlier if he didn't keep himself fit. I think it is silly to warn the public against excessive exercise when the majority of people alledgedly don't get enough exercise at all

[Ayesha]

Five quid says young Marr was 'bad at games' when he attended Loretto.

[eileithyia]

In the last couple of days - in the light of the Andrew Marr incident with the rowing machine - Dr Mark Porter (Times and radio4) has asserted that one should never exceed the rate given by the formula; 220 - age.
As I'm now 72 this gives me a maximum of 148 bpm.
I don't often use my heart rate monitor but I know this won't get me up a decent hill (at least with the rest of my clubmates).
Does anyone know where this formula came from? and what the scientific evidence is for it.?
could it be just another simplistic formula like BMI?

I was only half listening, so correct if I am wrong, but on the radio it was implied by Andrew that when he had this stroke he was found to have had 2 smaller ones previously that had gone unnoticed... so clearly may not have been in the best of help to begin with.

Have asked the question over on timetrialling forum. Where there are lots of geeks who have some idea of all these test etc.

220 number is not medically generated and is not prognostic. It is also a very different situation where people are doing regular exercise that they are used to, not someone who suddenly decides to have a go at high intensity exercise.

Many of those on TTF have varying answers regarding their max HR and it certainly shows most people have a max HR that wildly differs from this arbitary 220 system.

If you are reasonably fit already you may need to do a ramp test to assess max HR, if you do not want to visit coaches etc., it maybe a case of trying it for yourself on shortish straight / steady gradient and push hard and see for yourself what your max hr hits, and that should give you some idea..

Antonish I would not worry and carry on doing what you are doing.... we have Frank Kerry living locally who is putting out some fantastic times at timetrialling, is well into his 70's and I bet his HR well above 148 when he is racing...