My Mercian nightmare continues

[battle dog]

Dear Sirs,
I visited Mercian cycles back in 1994 sat on their frame measuring jig and ordered a Mercian custom made complete cycle with a campag chorus groupset .The bike arrived constructed correctly, and has been my most treasured possesion for years.
last year July 2012 I ordered a new custom made strada speciale in race geometry 853 pro team tubing ,the measurements were transposed from imperial inches to metric and a cad drawing was produced and all measurements were transposed correctly i sent them a full campag chorus groupset with nitto bars pmp titanium seatpost etc I paid the £400.00 pound deposit for the frame and the bike to be completed.I waited the six months and the complete cycle arrived in february this year 2013.I paid the remaining £1200.00 outstanding balance.
On arrival and to my horror the complete cycle arrived with the frame tubes measuring 5 mm to long in the head tube top tube and seat tube.I contacted the owner who originally denied my accusations.I demanded that they strip the cycle and give me a full refund and return my parts to me.Instead the shop manager intervened and said they would construct a new frame for me.Reluctantly i agreed. Another six months passed and in August a new complete cycle arrived.This time the head tube had been cut to the correct length ,but the top and seat tubes were still 5 mm to long .I returned the complete cycle to them for checking .This time i have demanded a full refund on the frame and that they return my parts to me.However they are refusing to refund me the money on the frame and have kept my parts.I have informed the credit card people who are going to file a dispute with them on my behalf,but they still hold my parts.can anyone help me on this matter.

[reohn2]

whilst I agree Mercian could have got your frame slightly(and it is only slightly)wrong.
TBH 5mm wouldn't be a deal breaker for me unless it definitely altered my riding position significantly,if say I couldn't lower the saddle or the handlebars were too close or I was too stretched out and it couldn't altered by fitting a different stem or the stand over was way too high that it "interfered with things" or the handling was altered significantly,etc.
But if it's just because it's 5mm too long or short etc,then I'd say,have a bit of tolerance

[Urticaria]

When you get into the nitty-gritty of a millimetre or two, then there are quite a few ways of agreeing "length".
What have you measured, and how? Do you think you might have royal blood in you?

[Indeboat]

Surely if the top tube was not the correct length this would have an adverse effect on steering geometry,5mm too long = very twitchy
5mm too short = slow.
The bike would not handle as the OP's original.
He ordered a new bike to the same spec as his old one,he did not get one

[Tonyf33]

If the measurements have not been done to the specification you've given then it isn't right. For an item of this value that is hand built then one should expect exactly to the mm the dimensions given. Even with a basic rule these measurements are easy to obtain so a professional bike builder should have zero problems doing it.
That it has taken 2 attempts over 12 months and stilll failed to meet your specification the manufacturer has not fullfilled the contract, therefore unless there are unknown conflicts with regard to how the measurements were taken/instructions you've given then I cannot see how the organisation you're dealing with has a leg to stand on. Unless they've stated that frame measurments may be plus or minus up to x amount (say 5mm which I'd find unlikely) then you're well within your rights to get a refund (you allowed them to attempt to sort it twice)
As the amount is greater than £1000 you cannot go down the small claims track in county court I'm certain.

[JohnW]

Are the tubes "853 Pro-Team" or "853 Pro-Team Oversize"?

Does anyone know whether all the "oversize" tubes are oversized in a frame?

I ask, because if the tube centre to centre dimensions are correct, then measurement to the top of the top tube from the BB centre will be greater than for standard diameter tubes.

Irrespective of that :

On the basis of the frame being oversized by 5mm, then only reducing the head tube length (and not the seat tube) will alter the angles and precipitate a slightly (almost imperceptibly) sloping top tube.

Does 5mm matter? - well, it depends. In extremis it could conceivably put the saddle in the wrong position. But that is most certainly in extremis. To be honest, if my final self-made adjustments (and you always have to do that) put the saddle/pedal/handlebar relative positions correct, I don't think I'd have even measured down to 5mm. I think I'd have made those final adjustments and ridden the bike first, and only then if there was something wrong would I have looked for reasons for the problem(s).

Now, what certainly could make a difference is if the angles were not correct............that could have implications on whether the correct saddle front/back position is possible - especially if the saddle is a Brooks.

Of course, it should be right, but my thoughts, and I have to confess ignorance - but my thoughts if I was having to make a judgement in a dispute would be that if the rider can be correctly positioned on the complete bike then 5mm would be within "reasonable" limits.

Or am I talking twaddle? (as usual)

[Whippet]

Small claims court limit is £10,000 since March this year:
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/ ... ms-court-/

[Brucey]

if I was out shopping for an off the peg frame, probably 5mm here and there would not concern me in the slightest. But if I was buying one that is meant to be built to a drawing, I would also reject it if it wasn't as agreed.

BTW as pointed out in a post above, you can't get the top tube and seat tube alone 'wrong' without there being something else wrong too, like the top tube not flat, the head tube and/or down tube wrong, and/or the head/seat angles wrong.

I'm not sure how to resolve the issue at this stage. Chances are that even if you do get a frame out of them that you can/will use, it mightn't make you happy anyway, not now.

cheers

[pete75]

The limits for the small claims court have increased and it can be used for claims up to £10,000.


The fact that 5mm here and there is more or less irrelevant for all practical purposes is itself irrelevant. You paid a high price to a supposedly good frame builder for a specifically sized product and they have failed to supply twice. A visit to a solicitor would probably be your best move - Mercian are more likely to back down once lawyers are involved.

It's worrying that Mercian are refusing to return parts which you supplied and are your property - what do they intend to do with them?

[anniesboy]

Yes its not right,if I were Mercian I would give you your money back and then point out you are clearly not happy with their work.
Hence you should take your business elsewhere. Im sure they will be able to sell the frame.

[uppadine]

You're overdoing this, and 5mm makes no difference

[al_yrpal]

You're overdoing this, and 5mm makes no difference

+1

Al

[Tonyf33]

You're overdoing this, and 5mm makes no difference

Rubbish, to you maybe but clearly not to the OP and others.
You pay top whack for something to an exact measurement, you don't get that provided so the product is faulty and the seller has failed to fulfill the contract between them and the buyer.
If you bought a hand made suit and the chest and arm length weren't right you'd reject it in an instant, that is the whole point of paying a very high price for a made to measure item, it is done to your EXACT specification.

[horizon]

You're overdoing this, and 5mm makes no difference

We don't know that for sure because we don't know why the OP actually does find it makes a difference.

[Brucey]

I have been in the same boat myself before now.

I made sure that the vendor and myself had a copy of the drawing and we discussed every aspect of the frame in detail, and amended both copies accordingly wherever there were changes.

I asked them if they could build to 0.5 degree accuracy and they said they could. I said OK, because if it comes out 0.5 degree too steep I will reject the frame, and I may as well stick to an off the peg, too. I also said that if they were not 100% confident they were welcome to build it 0.5 degree slacker and it would be OK. So the dwg went off with 73.5 degrees, tolerance +0.0, -0.5 degrees, and the frame came back wrong. They also left off some parts I'd requested and that were on the dwg.

This caused a small upset.

Fortunately they got it right second time around, but I am sure it would have caused a major upset of some kind had they not.

In my case 5mm would have not only been 'not to agreed dwg' but would also have been 'wrong' and would have negated the point of buying a custom frame in the first place.

The main point of a custom built frame is that it fits you, and it has the other dimensions, braze-ons etc that were agreed.

If you end up with neither then it is certainly cause for rejection.

cheers