dutch style roadster..

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
fatty
Posts: 101
Joined: 5 Nov 2012, 3:26pm
Location: swinton south yorkshire

dutch style roadster..

Postby fatty » 27 Oct 2013, 8:36pm

After going Car less this year. I have quite a nice road bike and a tourer but after a year of commuting and utility cycling I've ridden my road bike half a dozen times and my tourer is fast wearing out.. I'm really fancying a heavyweight roadster ie. Pashley Roadster Sovereign as it is hub geared, hub brakes dynamo hub steel guards full chain case coat gaurds......

I work a couple of miles from home and its fairly flat on most of my routes but it would have to withstand road, cycle paths , bridle ways in all weathers and do with very little maintainence for years...

I'm hoping with care it'll last ten years with ease so the approx £700.00 purchase will be less than £70 per year...
I've already spent £60 on tyres, £60 on servicing and £40 on consumables on my tourer this year plus on rack and a set of lightsar £50 which will need replacing after winter as battery pack is starting to last less impressive amounts of time..

Thoughts ladies and gentlemen

thirdcrank
Posts: 30042
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Oct 2013, 9:48pm

IMO, that's not a Dutch-style roadster but more of a retro copy of a Raleigh Superb. That's not a criticism, just an observation.

There are places selling genuine Dutch roadsters eg Cycle Heaven in York.

http://www.cycle-heaven.co.uk/bikes/brands/gazelle/

alicat
Posts: 112
Joined: 6 Feb 2012, 6:20pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby alicat » 27 Oct 2013, 9:53pm

I always feel Pashleys are expensive and favour tradition over practicality.

I have been very pleased with my Giant Expression N3, to which I have added various bits over the years so that it is effectively a Giant Expression N7 which costs about £500.

Evans do a similar one in their Pinnacle range and Decathlon have a similar one for far fewer spondoolies than the Pashley.

Brucey
Posts: 41377
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby Brucey » 28 Oct 2013, 8:59am

The Pashley might favour tradition over practicality, but that doesn't make such a bike impractical by any means. For practical transport of this type the Pashley is a little overpriced perhaps; better value by far are some other Dutch style bikes; an LBS near me sells 'Pointer' brand ones and they are better spec for the money, if not quite so nice to look at and lacking leather saddle etc.

If you swap to a roadster for your short flat commute, you will get a fair bit of culture shock; they are heavy (40lbs or so), you sit upright (great for visibility, bad in headwinds), and when you get a rear wheel puncture it is a PITA to remove the rear wheel. It is often easier to pull the tube out with the wheel in situ. I use a fairly puncture resistant tyre on the back of my roadster. With a full chaincase and an IGH you can often go a year with nothing more than;

- one shot of (the right) lube on the chain
- one chain adjustment
- pumping the tyres up occasionally
- adjusting gear cables and brake cables as necessary (once or twice, tops)

Shimano roller brakes are good, but are heavy and require regreasing (about once a year), or else they will wear out prematurely. SA drum brakes will normally do at least five or ten years on the same brake linings, so are a very practical choice. [My roadster brakes are only about 1/3 worn after more than ten years.] Coaster brakes are worth a look too. Most IGHs come grease lubricated these days; they will usually do five years or so without attention, but enough foul weather and road salt can sometimes compromise them before this; I'd suggest an annual shot of (the right) lube in the hub is a good idea. Well lubricated, most hubs will do ten years or more. SA hubs with a toggle chain can be relubricated through the axle.

In any event I'd suggest that you test ride any IGH you might get; they all shift slightly (or greatly) differently, and they all vary in how far apart the gears are. Recently several manufacturers have widened the gear range of their standard three speed hubs which isn't a good idea unless you are somewhere very hilly. SA have stuck with the traditional +33%, -25% ratios, but these are still a long way apart. The Nexus 7 hub has ratios that are much closer together (~+16% gaps, 244% range) which is good for choice, but means you can be constantly changing gear. You can also get automatic (or kickshift) 2s (~+38%) hubs, with coaster brake if required. Personally I think the older (225%) SA five speed hub is a nice compromise; the gears are closer together than a 3-speed but not so close as an N7 hub, whilst giving a reasonable range and good (probably the highest overall) efficiency. SA 5s hubs are however, not for everyone; they certainly don't shift as smoothly on every shift as an N7. Whilst the only shift that is comparable to an N7 is the 2-3 shift in the SA 5s hub, this is the most commonly used shift; I usually start in 2 and ride mostly in 3 (which is also the most efficient gear ratio).

If you buy a 5s Pashley now, you will probably get an X-RD5(W) hub, which has gears 2,3,4 spaced further apart than on the older (225%) 5s hub, and a wider overall range. In fact the middle gears of the (W) are spaced like a SA 3s hub, so in a flattish area, you may as well just get a 3s hub as the 5s (W) hub. There is also a new, different SA 5s hub out soon which may be worth hanging on for; it has a narrower range than the (W) hub and should have ratios more similar to the older (225%) hub.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thirdcrank
Posts: 30042
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Oct 2013, 10:20am

I'd say the main thing is to go for the right bike in terms of specification, rather than appearance, which is what I had in mind when I said retro. I've a modern roadster, although it's now a bit long in the tooth (like its owner :oops: ) It's a Cannondale, bought for less than half price when SJSC were flogging them in a clearance sale. In terms of Brucey's gearing comments it has the Nexus 7 with coaster (back pedal) brake. It has the relatively small (33T) standard Nexus chainwheel giving a bottom gear so low I've hardly ever used it, even when fully laden with thins like 5 kgs of spuds, 4 pack of baked beans, 4 pts milk etc., and it's quite hilly around here. I'd agree you wouldn't need that range if you lived somewhere flat - although even a snookwer table might seem hilly on a bike. It seems to me that the standard 3 spd Sturmey has one gear for general riding, a low gear for struggling into the wind and a higher gear for those rare occasions when you get a tailwind. Going by some of the publicity, I think there have been some misguided attempts by hubgear manufacturers to compete with deraileurs in terms of range, resulting in bigger steps which are more of a loss than anything gained from a bit wider range.

Afaik, in Holland, a single brake is street-legal, and even around here where it's nothing like Holland* I find the coaster brake more than adequate 90% of the time. I replaced the front hub with a hub brake and removed the front cantilever brake. OTOH, for anybody using a roadster for regular commuting rather than just things like shopping, I think a hub dynamo is worth considering.

I've found the wide handlebars a mixed blessing. They are very comfortable in a sit-up-and-beg sort of way, but don't facilitate looking over the shoulder when I'd normally put the opposite hand in the centre of the bars. They don't help filtering in traffic either.

My other main upgrade was replacing the plastic saddle with a sprung Brooks Conquest. Again, bought in a clearance sale - CTC shop at York Rally. It's the same top as a Professional but with springs. The cycling equivalent of an armchair. The downside is that leather saddles need protecting from the rain. Second nature to those of us who've known little else, but not for everybody.

* They do say that Gildersome gets its name from giving a home to Dutch refugees at some time in the distant past: the landscape can't have been what they were used to and we've no windmills :wink: .

Ayesha
Posts: 4192
Joined: 30 Jan 2010, 9:54am

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby Ayesha » 28 Oct 2013, 10:36am

Some will tell you the Sturmey AW3 has a middle gear equivalent to the Rover Safety bike, or the penny farthing you would have bought. It has a lower gear for hills and a higher gear for general riding.
Over the years, the SA’s middle gear has crept up to over 60”.

In days gone by, the speed of a commute cyclist going to work was about twice the speed of a slow jog. IIRC, about 10 mph. At these speeds, power is about half that as a slow jog, so sweat becomes less of a problem to the commuter.
The gearing of the Rover Safety was 2 x 26 = 52”. For commuting with low amounts of perspiration, set the middle ratio to 52” or close to it.

My Raleigh 20 is 36, 48 and 64 inch. In office clothing, the four mile trip to where I worked was low in perspiration. Hardly any,in fact.

A 26” wheel is quite easy to get the right gearing on a Sturmey AW3. Ring needs to be twice the sprocket, so 42 x 21 is bang on. A 52/42 with the 52 removed does the job. SRAM sprockets are a likeness of SA sprockets.
If the 26” wheel is a 559 rim, use a 20 sprocket.

rand
Posts: 318
Joined: 5 Mar 2008, 6:38pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby rand » 28 Oct 2013, 10:45am

Brucey,

If you have 26" wheels, why not use Cobra linear tubes? They obviate the need to remove your rear wheel and are simplicity itself to use and the knowledge that I don't have to remove my rear wheel in the event of a puntcure is just so re-assuring.

Rand.

Ayesha
Posts: 4192
Joined: 30 Jan 2010, 9:54am

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby Ayesha » 28 Oct 2013, 10:54am

For a commute up to five miles ( or beyond ), go solid.

http://www.greentyre.co.uk/bicycle-tyres.php

Brucey
Posts: 41377
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby Brucey » 28 Oct 2013, 11:49am

rand wrote:Brucey,

If you have 26" wheels, why not use Cobra linear tubes? They obviate the need to remove your rear wheel and are simplicity itself to use and the knowledge that I don't have to remove my rear wheel in the event of a puntcure is just so re-assuring.

Rand.


That is a fair point, but.... to get the new tube in, the whole tyre needs to be unseated, not just the part with the hole in. This takes slightly longer; I reckon I can patch the old tube in about the same time TBH; maybe a minute or two longer perhaps? [I think the last time I had a flat it took me about ten minutes to fix it. I'm thinking of carrying some tyre weld for times when that is too long or when it is raining.]

The other thing is that with the old tube, patched, the patch is usually up against the part of the cover where the puncture happened before; the patched tube is now twice as thick, and is less likely to puncture a second time, should there still be a small flint in the cover (that you missed) or the cover now has a slightly jaggy hole in it. So maybe patching is a good idea from that standpoint, too?

BTW it occurs to me that another approach is to carry a cobra tube, but to fit it only in the event that the original cannot be repaired. The old (standard type) tube can simply be cut out when the need arises. A stanley knife or razor blade in the repair kit comes in handy at times like this.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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breakwellmz
Posts: 1982
Joined: 8 May 2012, 9:33pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby breakwellmz » 28 Oct 2013, 2:11pm

An enclosed rear chain on a motorcycle is brilliant,as the chain and guard are undisturbed and the wheel moves away from them for removal.
On a bicycle,a HD galvanised chain,with a disc trouser protector on the front chainwheel is a very good compromise in my experience.
Thumbs up for Nexus 7 hubs as well :D

thirdcrank
Posts: 30042
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Oct 2013, 2:20pm

I couldn't even begin to think about repairing a puncture with the the wheel still in and just exposing the bit of tube where it's punctured, but I've seen it done - and at the roadside - quicker than I could have repaired a puncture with q/r wheels. :oops:

I suppose anybody thinking of relying on that method should try it out at home first.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby Brucey » 28 Oct 2013, 3:54pm

Actually on a Pashley, through accident or design (I suspect the former...), several of their bikes use an inexpensive single-walled endrick type aluminium rim. Although not a super strong rim, this usually lasts for ages provided the spoke tension is good; there are no eyelets to rust, the material is soft and doesn't suffer SCC, and the hub brakes don't wear it obviously...

This rim also has the inestimable benefit that it has a deep well (like Super Champion Mod 58 rims used to have) and most tyres come on and off quite easily. I still use tyre levers (with a robust puncture-proof tyre fitted) but with some tyres they would definitely be optional.

This makes puncture fixes (with or especially without wheel removal) a fair bit easier than they might otherwise be.

So with a roadster, I'd suggest that the type of wheel rim is more important than with some other bikes; although the rims on 26" wheeled Sovereign models have been good this way in the past, they may have changed them; most westwood rims are terrible for getting the tyres off, and some modern double-walled rims are not great either. The Guvnor and some other current Pashley models are fitted with aluminium westwood style rims (in 635mm BSD) and they are an absolute pig to get the tyres on and off of.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Swizz69
Posts: 402
Joined: 3 Aug 2008, 12:25am
Location: Hyde

dutch style roadster..

Postby Swizz69 » 28 Oct 2013, 5:42pm

+1 on a Dutchbike.

I bought mine almost 3 years ago 2nd hand. It weighs a ton but is a fantastic machine & über comfortable. The lack of weight on your wrists due to the riding position keeps your hands warmer in winter too, as the blood supply to your hands isn't restricted.

The gearhub is a narrow range Sturmey 5 speed and TBH isn't too efficient in its lowest ratio. As pointed out further up the thread, the middle three are classic AW3 ratios and given the choice I'd pick one of those with a larger sprocket.

To suggest that a Roadster/Dutch bike is impractical to commute on is from the point of view of an owner a bit laughable. They are 'the' original practical bicycle and come like that off the peg - you don't buy one of these machines to then go arsing about fitting (essential) accessories because apart from pannier bags, they come with everything else already fitted.

Brucey
Posts: 41377
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby Brucey » 28 Oct 2013, 8:39pm

just to clarify the SA gear ratios;

typical AW 3s hub (all ages)

1. 0.75 +33%
2. 1.00 +33%
3 1.33

2009- SA 5s hubs with (W) suffix (256% range)

1. 0.625 +20%
2. 0.750 +33%
3 1.000 +33%
4. 1.333 +20%
5. 1.600


1965-2009 5s hubs --no (W) suffix-- 225% range

1 : 0.667 +18.4%
2 : 0.789 +26.7%
3 : 1.000 +26.7%
4 : 1.267 +18.4%
5 : 1.500

In some SA 5s hubs (roughly 1993-onwards), gear 1 has a little additional friction in some hub versions (there is an additional drag spring force in some gears which consumes a fixed amount of ~1-2W or so at normal speeds) but it is still otherwise quite efficient (in terms of load dependent losses) I think; however it may not feel that way simply because it is only 33% lower than gear 3. Single stage epicyclic gears such as SA 3 and 5 gears are not intrinsically inefficient in the same way as multiple stage gearsets are.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

resus1uk
Posts: 269
Joined: 12 Mar 2007, 9:28am

Re: dutch style roadster..

Postby resus1uk » 28 Oct 2013, 8:49pm

For city use (when I worked in York) I got a Gazelle Impala from Cycle Heaven to keep in the bike shed.
N7 rear hub, big stainless steel wheels, hub brakes and dynamo lights, built in lock.
Weighs a ton but great to get around the city with various loads.
Little maintainence needed, just a few simple tasks during the lunch break occasionally.
Now I have retired I still use this as back up to my trikes. It even takes a Carry Freedom trailer and large shopping loads which can't fit on the trikes.
Simple to lock up. Rideable in normal clothes as big mudguards, chain guard & dress guard.
Classy bell in the left hand grip.
I have even taken it to Belgium & Germany on a car bike carrier to use on holiday.