Not enough women on the forum

[jan19]

Re: Not enough women on the forum
by eileithyia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:31 am

DOH!!!!!!!! Does anyone LISTEN to what I have been saying.

That's exactly how I feel.

Jan

[meic]

The analogy was for the Forum not cycling.

The Forum is a common space which exists for people to come together and interact.
So it seemed like a virtual equivalent of a football field.

[horizon]

Re: Not enough women on the forum
by eileithyia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:31 am

DOH!!!!!!!! Does anyone LISTEN to what I have been saying.

That's exactly how I feel.

Jan

I hear you jan19 - and I know how you feel. But just also to add that that is a common forum experience ... (and why this discussion is quite a complicated one - where is the line between what you experience as a forum user and as a woman on the forum? I don't think that is a simple question).

[gordy]

The tone of this forum, IMHO, is unrelentingly pessimistic and negative, and I think that it puts people off, especially women.
If you browse American fora such as the Adventure Cycling Association or Bike Journal you'll see a difference. There are very few people banging their drums.
If you have a look at a popular with women forum such as Mumsnet in the UK you'll see that major issues can be discussed without slagging off other posters.

So, if this forum wants more women to contribute, here are my tips for individual members:

1) Don't choose a forum name that identifies you as old.
2) Don't choose a forum name that identifies you as grumpy.
3) Don't include the fact that you've cycled for 20/30/40/50/60 years in every post.
4) Don't automatically slag off the youth of today.
5) Don't be instantly cynical if someone mentions Sustrans/Halfords/Boris/Snow/Councils/Highways/the YHA/BMX/ten-speed/sportives
6) Don't be instantly critical of anything that the CTC does or that the CTC publishes.
7) Occasionally offer some support to the work that the CTC is doing with disadvantaged and disabled groups.
8 ) This is the 21st century... carbon fibre and marketing departments exist. Get over it.

Watch this video clip. See if you can spot anyone, ANYONE who would find anything useful in the threads on this forum.
http://vimeo.com/70667749

[BeeKeeper]

I agree. Lots of women who cycle just less who want to spend their idle hours on a forum talking about it.

[eileithyia]

Re: Not enough women on the forum
by eileithyia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:31 am

DOH!!!!!!!! Does anyone LISTEN to what I have been saying.

That's exactly how I feel.

Jan

Thanks Jan19, I do not necessarily feel a need to be on an exclusive female cycling forum, but the sudden growth in many of these style forums shows there is a need / desire... as I have said.

[beardy]

7) Occasionally offer some support to the work that the CTC is doing with disadvantaged and disabled groups.

Gulp,
You think that making that a requirement of forum posters is going to encourage more members.

1) Don't choose a forum name that identifies you as old.

Does that mean we only want to attract young women on to the forum?

[feefee8]

As a not-quite-so-young woman who is a recent joiner to the forum, I can say that I have found it to contain a vast amount of technical info, some of which goes over my head but a lot of which I find to be very useful in my attempts to learn a bit more about cycling in general and more specifically touring.

I maybe do find the technical debates a bit long and drawn out as there's a tendency to argue points to the nth degree. I don't know if this is a specifically male or female trait but I know that I can skip over that thread onto one which I am interested in or has more relevance to me. No one makes people read all of the posts and generally you can tell if it's worth your while looking based on the thread name and sometimes, the number of pages.

I don't think I have any sex/gender specific cycling issues that would require a separate board for discussion. One of the points I see is how mad people think I am for cycling to work, especially women. There is absolutely no interest from anyone else in this office in cycling to work. I happen to work in an office where there are more women than men - they *might* cycle during leisure time or use a bike at the gym but they would never cycle to work. And less still are they likely to happen upon a forum. If you're interested in a subject then you'll find the info and likeminded people quite easily on the internet - that's just how it works. Some women may prefer to chat to other women about their hobby; others may choose not to distinguish. The different styles of discussion are what define the different forums (it keeps autocorrecting fora!) and there's probably a place for all of them - there's no rule saying you have to only contribute to or follow only one forum after all.

Back to my earlier point about the disposable gloves, I fixed a puncture with them on without piercing them. And I didn't get my hands black. I was quite happy about that all in all. I find the thicker gloves don't give enough dexterity in the fiddly bits where your hands are most likely to be blackened so I'd take them off anyway. Each to their own. Very interested in solutions to helmet hair - I don't think short hair is an option for me...

[Vorpal]

Re: Not enough women on the forum
by eileithyia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:31 am

DOH!!!!!!!! Does anyone LISTEN to what I have been saying.

That's exactly how I feel.

Jan

I think that nearly everyone has information or posts lost or ignored sometimes, especially on a thread like this. It's grown by a couple of pages just today. That quite a bit to keep up with, even that's the only thread someone is following.

I wasn't ignoring your previous responses (in case you were referring to me), but looking for other responses. I think that you (and others) have made some good suggestions. I have to admit to mixed feelings on this topic.


The fact is that sexism does exist and we don't have a perfect solution. We can do our small part to make things a bit better. I would like to do more to encourage women, not just to join the forum, but also to stick around. I am not entirely comfortable with the idea of an area dedicated to women's issues. If such is needed, it would be most fair to have an area dedicated to gender-specific issues (please don't argue about the use of that word on this thread; another thread has been hijacked for that), but I'm not sure that that would do anything to encourage more women. I can completely understand why anyone might not feel comfortable asking about gender-specific anatomical or saddle issues. And I think that would be more likely to be intimidating to women (this not meant to be a sexist statement; it is, IMO, a result of culture). So I can the benefit of an area where women might feel safer posting about even simple things like 'what do you do during menstruation?' Maybe we just need an area where negative vibes aren't allowed.

eileithyia suggested some ground rules yesterday are there other things that should be included in new to cycling or women's issues subforums, if we were to go down that path?

I think meic's analogy is fair, but this is more like the football players discussing amongst themselves, whether the balance of boys and girls is right and if they should do anything about it, rather than having external requirements imposed. Where the analogy may have some difficulty, is that this discussion could be taken as just having a kick around

[jan19]

I went back to the topic Vorpal flagged up, as it was on a similar subject and I found the following:

The thread was started in Sept 2008, ran to 20 pages and there were 39 male contributors and 17 female. There were 13 I couldn't identify one way or the other either from their username or the content of their post(s).

Of the men, 10 are still active on the forum
Of the women, 3 are still active (Eileithyia, Vorpal and myself)

On this current thread, there have been 37 male and 15 female contributors so far. There's 1 I don't know either way.

I felt this was a reasonable comparison, given that the two topics are broadly similar and would attract possibly more female posters than some other threads as they directly address a specific female topic. You can work the percentages out but I think it shows they haven't really changed in the last 5 years, although the female "lapsed" rate is higher than the male - including some very prolific posters like Mhara, Coffee, Bikely-Challenged, Flinders, DeeJay and Kirst. Mhara I know left because she was hurt by comments from another forum member, but I have no idea why the others no longer post.


I know its risky trying to draw conclusions from just one example, but to me it indicates that the way the forum is set up doesn't currently attract a higher percentage of female posters than it did five years ago.

Jan

[Vorpal]

At least this thread is a bit friendlier

[gaz]

eileithyia suggested some ground rules yesterday are there other things that should be included in new to cycling or women's issues subforums, if we were to go down that path?

If a beginners section is created please make it a proper board, not a sub-forum. The current sub-forums are not on the board index, newcomers will need to be able to find it.

[eileithyia]

Vorpal no comments I have added were aimed at you, but to those who directly came on after I had posted about other groups and forums and then contradicted anything I had said that women do actually want an area where they can discuss real concerns without feeling it will be swamped by male testosterone and and silly remarks.

There is a simple answer to helmet hair... don't wear a helmet But then I pull a hat on (ok ski band) and squish my hair anyway. Sometimes it was easier when I had long hair that had to be tied up at work and a cap, as bad hair days were hidden.... now I have short, sort of styled hair if you count quick comb thru with fingers, and occasionally bits that stick out in the wrong direction.... on those days I am glad to think I might be in theatre and hair hidden under a theatre cap...

I must admit though when I first started cycle commuting I was concerned that I would not turn up at work looking like a windswept mess to give senior an excuse to try say I should not cycle, having said that I never did.

[gaz]

For a moment let me leave sex/gender aside, if for no other reason than the fact that reliable figures on the current gender/sex distribution of CTC forum members are not available, although I do not dispute the assumptions made.

Here are a few figures.

CTC forum has a little over 24,000 members.
In the UK 20 million people cycle once or more a year.
3 million cycle three times a week or more.

CTC forum seeks to appeal to all cyclists. The global total CTC forum membership, male, female and spammer is less than 1% of the UK numbers who cycle three time a week or more, and about 0.12% of the UK numbers who cycle at all.

Before anyone, male, female, or spammer can consider the merits of the CTC forum they have to find it.

I've just tried a yahoo search for "Cycling Forums", after looking through 15 pages I stopped. I still hadn't found the CTC forum. Of course that's an unlikely search term, 10 pages of "Rear derailleur adjustment" and "How to stop helmet hair" without a mention of the CTC forum before I stopped looking. "Shimergo" found the forum listed on page 4, the CTC main site was both the first and second hit.

DOH!!!!!!!! Does anyone LISTEN to what I have been saying. Why are there dozens of women's cycling facebook groups and fora (forums) specifically for women cyclists if that is not what they want!!!!

I know its risky trying to draw conclusions from just one example, but to me it indicates that the way the forum is set up doesn't currently attract a higher percentage of female posters than it did five years ago.

Perhaps anyone searching for a cycling forum or a women's cycling forum finds another option first, CTC Forum does not seem to be high up the search table.

Perhaps the CTC forum primarily appeals to CTC members, that's certainly how I came to be here. If that is the primary route to the forum it may explain why more men seem to be on this forum than women (but I'm back to guesswork).

It must also be said that some cyclists desire greater specialism from their cycling forums; 38,000 members of LFGSS want what it has to offer. Perhaps it is time for the CTC forum to launch a new board.


Edit - Number of forum members is 24,000+, not 12000+, whoops.

[meic]

Eileithyia:

You are a friend and I know that you would say this to my face.

I had said that women do actually want an area where they can discuss real concerns without feeling it will be swamped by male testosterone and and silly remarks.

I would never dare say the gender reversed version to you though.