Indoor training question

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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Hackfall
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Indoor training question

Postby Hackfall » 8 Oct 2014, 4:31pm

Last winter being a mild one I never resorted to the turbo trainer. I don't expect to be so lucky this time so thinking about ways to record the session.

I have an old style cycle computer that will track cadence and based on that calculating using the distance each wheel turn covers it will give you distance. I use Strava and this is fine and can be used to manually enter a ride on strava.

My question is can similar be achieved with a Garmin, on any of the Garmins in the range? So does it just display cadence for you to use as a training aid or can it calculate distance also as something you can save to the Garmin then upload, the Garmin will obviously know you are stationary and indoors, as it asks you that when it can't find a satellite. Hope I am making sense.

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Mick F
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby Mick F » 8 Oct 2014, 4:39pm

Yep, making sense! :D

I had a Garmin Edge 705 with the HR strap and the Speed/Cadence unit.
I rode my rollers, and set the 705 to record but with GPS set to OFF.
This gave me distance, time, speed, average speed, cadence, HR and all the other info. It was brilliant! :D and I sort of wish I hadn't sold it all.

Now, I have a Garmin Montana. It's a hand held/do anything device, and I use it for my cycling, but I don't have the HR or the speed/cadence units with it. When I ride my rollers, I use a simple bike computer to read as I ride and manually input the info into my rides records.

Garmin Edge units will do just as you wish indoors. Just go to the settings menu and select GPS OFF. If you wait after switching on, it may ask you if you want to continue without GPS.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Hackfall
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby Hackfall » 8 Oct 2014, 4:46pm

My Garmin is the Forerunner 305. It records cadence but I don't have the cadence sensor yet. Could this be why there are no additional options about cadence or wheel size as I need to install the cadence sensor first? I read somewhere that when you use the cadence sensor outside for a ride the Garmin calculates what your wheel size must be so you can then use it indoors. If I can be confident in my model this will work I think I'll get myself the cadence sensor and go for it.

Then the next question would be does Strava count it as "real" miles or not when you upload it or treat it in the same way as manually uploaded training sessions.

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Mick F
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby Mick F » 8 Oct 2014, 5:03pm

Yes, if you set your unit to Auto Wheel Size, it calculates the wheel circumference for you (and itself) and uses that figure when GPS reception is poor. The wheel circumference varies throughout a ride as when you power uphill the tyre deforms to a lower figure than if you're speeding along on the flat or downhill. Also, as the speed/cadence unit is measuring the rear wheel, it isn't susceptible to the weaving of the front making distance more accurate. The last figure it has recorded will be the figure used on the indoor trainer.

You say "cadence" but you need the speed/cadence device GCS10 to use it for indoor training.

My Montana will record cadence from a GCS10, but it doesn't have the facility to record speed from it. Speed can only come from GPS with the Montana, so I don't know if the Forerunner 305 has speed as well as cadence.

Perhaps someone else can advise specifically, but if it does both the Speed and the Cadence, it's the GCS10 that you want.
https://buy.garmin.com/en-GB/GB/shop-by ... d1266.html

Looks like it does! :D
Click on the Compatible Devices tab.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Hackfall
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby Hackfall » 8 Oct 2014, 5:26pm

thanks for that and yes GSC10 I knew that, failed to mention it before and I was probably not completely clear.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 8 Oct 2014, 10:32pm

Hi,
The most important stat to work on is going to be % of maximum heart rate.
This will give the zone that you are working in.
Low intensity aerobic - mid aerobic - high intensity aerobic touching into anaerobic - anaerobic.

Depending what type of workout you are training for :?:

Health - fat burn - cardio fitness - performance.

Interval training where you ramp it up periodicly is best for overal fitness.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
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trull
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby trull » 9 Oct 2014, 5:54am

If you can use a cheap laptop for Sufferfest type inspiration, why not integrate the experience with a ANT+ dongle and Peripedal reading a hrm and speed/cadence? Exporting a FIT file once you are finished to Strava.

rfryer
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby rfryer » 9 Oct 2014, 6:25am

If you're looking to help justify buying a Garmin, then yes, it can be used to help track an indoor training session.

However, if your goal is to enhance your indoor training sessions, and you already have a PC available, I'd recommend looking at Trainerroad, an Ant+ dongle, and a cheap speed/cadence/HR Ant+ sensors. Possibly augmented with Sufferfest.

Mrs rfryer does the vast majority of her cycling on this kit (she hates cycling in the city) and finds it keeps her well motivated.

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Re: Indoor training question

Postby BigFoz » 9 Oct 2014, 9:42am

I use a Cateye computer with rear wheel sensor and cadence. That plus my HRM gives me exact measurements of what I want/need to do. I generally work in times, and the "distance" is something that I record at the end without worrying about it as I go. So I might do a 15 minute w/u, gradually increasing gears on low resistance, then do 3x(5min "ON"/ 5min "OFF") at a specific HR, then do a 15 minute warm down. Seems easy, but when the HR is set at say 162 ON, 145OFF, it soon starts to burn. Gearing / resistance is whatever provides those HRs at between 90-95rpm. By Feb, that 3x(5+5) will be 6x(5+5). Any more than 1.5 hrs on a turbo in a 9x7 shed and you'd need psychiatric assistance...

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Mick F
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby Mick F » 9 Oct 2014, 11:15am

I use rollers.
They take concentration to stay upright, so it's not quite so boring!

I tend to do sets of 5miles at a time, then rest a while, then repeat. Four sets is enough.
Select a high gear, and go for it. The higher the gear, the harder the workout.
Mick F. Cornwall

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 9 Oct 2014, 8:21pm

Hi,
There is no substitution for road work , rollers are I would assume better than turbo because they simulate road riding as you have to counter balance the output from one leg lopp sided by tilting bike like on the road, moving along like a snake.
Tubo is fixed so.....I found that after a winter of turbo training , first ride on road, 100 miles like you do :? meant pain in lower legs as the muscles were not that toned, 2nd ride is OK the pain is short lived and not crippling.

Not sure how the expensive standalone trainers you see can tilt at all :?:
And do roller give any resistance like turbo trainers :?:
My Cateye Cyclosimulator (old model , needs donor bike) allows timed rides / distance and has a switchable gradient 1-2-3-5-7 % plus a power meter, readout at end gives distance / time and kcals, the kcals must be a direct calculation of power watts.
15 years old and is the buis.
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Mick F
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby Mick F » 9 Oct 2014, 8:41pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:And do roller give any resistance like turbo trainers :?:
Dunno specifically as I've never used a turbo trainer.

However, rollers aren't "free".
The drums are about 6" diameter and are heavy. If you select a highish gear, say 100" and pedal at 80rpm using 700x23 wheels, what speed are the rollers running?
Damned fast! :shock:

ie quite a bit of resistance.
I reckon it's like climbing a shallow hill as fast as you can.
Mick F. Cornwall

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BSRU
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby BSRU » 10 Oct 2014, 9:22am

I like using a turbo because I do not have to worry about falling off or riding in the dark/cold/rain/strong winds.
You can target particular areas for improvement in a controlled and repeatable way.
I can ride myself to complete exhaustion knowing I have a short 10m walk to a nice hot shower and food.

It's also made my road riding far more enjoyable, not only because I am stronger with a better/smoother technique but I can take it much easier and enjoy the ride even more.

Wish I'd bought it years ago :wink: .

andrewjoseph
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby andrewjoseph » 11 Oct 2014, 10:39am

To the op, Garmin 705 and 800 have training session screens, training programs included, plus you can make your own. There is also a 'training partner ' that you can compete against.

These help me stay focused on the turbo,
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Ayesha
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Re: Indoor training question

Postby Ayesha » 11 Oct 2014, 10:57am

What type of event are you training for?

Training on a turbo can be a very simple thing, or a very complex thing.

The simple method is to use an ordinary bike computer on the driven wheel and measure the distance covered in a certain time ( usually 20 minutes as in a CT FTP test ) dictated by a countdown timer.
The resistance of the turbo needs to be known to back-calculate Watts. Kurt Kinetic road Machine is excellent. Elite are fine.
What you will get is a COMPARATIVE result against your previous tests. It will never be ABSOLUTE unless you spend £100,000 on an emissions chassis dynamometer.
The closer the turbo's resistance curve to your actual bike on the road, the closer your result will be to absolute.

To find out your bike's road curve, do a roll-down freewheel test on a road with a known slope. The calculations are somewhere on the web.

Once you have ascertained the resistance level which best represents level road, you can do the math to ascertain the amount of slope each progressive resistance level represents. From clicking from one to another, you can simulate hill climbing.