Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
brumster
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Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby brumster » 20 Oct 2014, 9:23pm

Does a bicycle sold with traditional mudguards by law have any form of safety/breakaway release such as the SKS secu clips fitted? If an accident did occur where the mudguard jammed would the retailer be liable??

Brucey
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby Brucey » 20 Oct 2014, 10:23pm

there is an ISO standard for mudguards which includes a QD/breakaway provision for safety reasons but it excludes rigid metal mudguards from needing a QD fitting and it isn't clear to me that any portion of it is part of the UK requirement.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 21 Oct 2014, 7:08am

I think consensus is that there is no requirement in UK law, and that that is a pretty bad omission.

I idly wonder what the consequences would be on the trike.
At the rear I suspect that anything jamming would rip the mudguard round and jam the rear wheel. I'd lose drive and have to slow down using the front brakes - no biggy.
The front guards are pretty solid, I suspect anything that wanted to jam would get thrown out sideways...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

mattsccm
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby mattsccm » 21 Oct 2014, 12:42pm

I am not so sure that it needs to be a legal issue. Its the riders potential safety and a pretty small concern. Manufactures should have no need obligation to cater for the riders circumstances. Why not have permanently fixed lights, dynamo I suppose.. Same with reflectors. They don't always work. In 35 years of riding ( I don't count as a child) I can only recall one incident where something jammed in a guard and wrapped the guard round the fork and wheel. That guard was fitted with QR's that didn't. They take some shifting!
Risks are so small that its not worth the legislation or to my mind the principle.
By all means let them exist but compulsory. No
Legal requirements have to reasons for existence. To protect others and to protect the user. the former are good, the latter are hard to defend.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 21 Oct 2014, 2:02pm

Also a mounting higher up the fork has a similar effect - this position has fallen out of fashion though, no doubt because an extra bit of plate on the dropout is cheaper than a braze on mudguard eye...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

JohnW
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby JohnW » 21 Oct 2014, 2:56pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:I think consensus is that there is no requirement in UK law, and that that is a pretty bad omission.

I idly wonder what the consequences would be on the trike..............


I agree with Bob - I don't wonder what the consequences are on a two-wheeled bike because I know - something gets caught in your wheel and you smash your skull on the road, break five ribs and your collar-bone, you're in hospital for a week and in bed at home for a further five weeks.

Yes, these safety measures should be required by law and if we've not converted our bikes to them, then we should - I should have..............although at that time, spare stays with the QR connectors weren't available separately.

As it happens, the 'thing' that got caught in my front wheel was one of those wide, flat spanners that the motoring fraternity use for adjusting their tappits. Someone must have been doing that and absentmindedly left it on the engine block before driving off for a test. The driver of the car could have been miles away by the time he nearly killed me........they can even do it by proxy :( :( :( :(

JohnW
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby JohnW » 21 Oct 2014, 2:58pm

mattsccm wrote:I am not so sure that it needs to be a legal issue. Its the riders potential safety and a pretty small concern. Manufactures should have no need obligation to cater for the riders circumstances. Why not have permanently fixed lights, dynamo I suppose.. Same with reflectors. They don't always work. In 35 years of riding ( I don't count as a child) I can only recall one incident where something jammed in a guard and wrapped the guard round the fork and wheel. That guard was fitted with QR's that didn't. They take some shifting!
Risks are so small that its not worth the legislation or to my mind the principle.
By all means let them exist but compulsory. No
Legal requirements have to reasons for existence. To protect others and to protect the user. the former are good, the latter are hard to defend.


I'm sorry matt, but I don't see it your way..................

Bicycler
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby Bicycler » 21 Oct 2014, 3:20pm

mattsccm wrote:I am not so sure that it needs to be a legal issue. Its the riders potential safety and a pretty small concern. Manufactures should have no need obligation to cater for the riders circumstances. Why not have permanently fixed lights, dynamo I suppose.. Same with reflectors. They don't always work. In 35 years of riding ( I don't count as a child) I can only recall one incident where something jammed in a guard and wrapped the guard round the fork and wheel. That guard was fitted with QR's that didn't. They take some shifting!
Risks are so small that its not worth the legislation or to my mind the principle.
By all means let them exist but compulsory. No
Legal requirements have to reasons for existence. To protect others and to protect the user. the former are good, the latter are hard to defend.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that we make it an offence to cycle with mudguards without secu-clips. However, I think they ought to be supplied with mudguards and installed where somebody has paid for the installation of mudguards or a bike comes supplied with mudguards. You speak as if people are making an informed decision not to install them, whereas really most people are unaware of their existence. When buying a bike or mudguards people assume that they are buying something safe and fit for purpose and indeed they are right to expect that. Whilst safety releases may not work every time they are significantly better than nothing. We increase product safety standards by improving safety bit by bit, preventing potential injury, not by only tackling things which cause injuries left right and centre. Somebody should not have to die to prove that something poses a risk. In this case people have died through the jamming of front wheels due to mudguards. Deaths which may have been prevented by devices which in no way affect the enjoyment or convenience of riding a bike.

I'm normally somebody who has a lot of sympathy for the libertarian perspective but I don't really see the objection here. How great a blow has your autonomy suffered if your new bike has safety releases or you buy a new pair of mudguards with them included?

profpointy
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby profpointy » 21 Oct 2014, 3:36pm

I'm not entirely sure what "safety clips" are exactly in this context, so my post is to some extent based on blissful ignorance. BUT, and I think it's a valid "but", I'd be vary wary of a so called "safety" feature that made mudguards less securely fitted. OK something caught in the mudguards / wheel will likely cause an "off", but something that allows the mudguards to fall off easier will likely create as many hazards as it removes. The now released mudguards is going to end up somewhere after all!Just because something is titled "safety" doesn't make it so.

But as I've said, I've never seen the things.

niggle
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby niggle » 21 Oct 2014, 3:40pm

Bicycler wrote:
mattsccm wrote:I am not so sure that it needs to be a legal issue. Its the riders potential safety and a pretty small concern. Manufactures should have no need obligation to cater for the riders circumstances. Why not have permanently fixed lights, dynamo I suppose.. Same with reflectors. They don't always work. In 35 years of riding ( I don't count as a child) I can only recall one incident where something jammed in a guard and wrapped the guard round the fork and wheel. That guard was fitted with QR's that didn't. They take some shifting!
Risks are so small that its not worth the legislation or to my mind the principle.
By all means let them exist but compulsory. No
Legal requirements have to reasons for existence. To protect others and to protect the user. the former are good, the latter are hard to defend.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that we make it an offence to cycle with mudguards without secu-clips. However, I think they ought to be supplied with mudguards and installed where somebody has paid for the installation of mudguards or a bike comes supplied with mudguards. You speak as if people are making an informed decision not to install them, whereas really most people are unaware of their existence. When buying a bike or mudguards people assume that they are buying something safe and fit for purpose and indeed they are right to expect that. Whilst safety releases may not work every time they are significantly better than nothing. We increase product safety standards by improving safety bit by bit, preventing potential injury, not by only tackling things which cause injuries left right and centre. Somebody should not have to die to prove that something poses a risk. In this case people have died through the jamming of front wheels due to mudguards. Deaths which may have been prevented by devices which in no way affect the enjoyment or convenience of riding a bike.

I'm normally somebody who has a lot of sympathy for the libertarian perspective but I don't really see the objection here. How great a blow has your autonomy suffered if your new bike has safety releases or you buy a new pair of mudguards with them included?

+ 1 for legislation for front mudguard safety releases being fitted at the point of sale (incorporate in the same legislation that requires bells, spoke reflectors, etc.), or when mudguards are fitted by a professional after point of sale, and to be supplied with new mudguards with clear and prominent instructions on how and why to use them.

There was a thread a while back where Evans had fitted a customer's bike with SKS mudguards as accessories and had put the safety releases on the back, and were adamant that this was correct when challenged. I think CJ might have got involved in the end?

niggle
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby niggle » 21 Oct 2014, 3:42pm

profpointy wrote:I'm not entirely sure what "safety clips" are exactly in this context, so my post is to some extent based on blissful ignorance. BUT, and I think it's a valid "but", I'd be vary wary of a so called "safety" feature that made mudguards less securely fitted. OK something caught in the mudguards / wheel will likely cause an "off", but something that allows the mudguards to fall off easier will likely create as many hazards as it removes. The now released mudguards is going to end up somewhere after all!Just because something is titled "safety" doesn't make it so.

But as I've said, I've never seen the things.

Read here for CJ's tireless work on this very real safety issue: http://www.ctc.org.uk/article/technical ... ard-safety

tatanab
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby tatanab » 21 Oct 2014, 3:49pm

My problem with current designs is that the old SKS design rattles after a few months/years and the more modern design allows the mudguard to flap sideways which again rattles/rubs and could possibly catch on sideways facing knobbles if MTB folk use them.

blackbike
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby blackbike » 21 Oct 2014, 3:52pm

Surely legislation and health and safety regulations are only needed when a type of accident becomes a significant and common occurrence and I doubt front mudguard accidents are common or cause many serious injuries. I've never heard of anyone coming a cropper this way.

If we had compulsion for things like this then we'd end up with compulsion on other things like helmets, 3rd party insurance and compulsion to ride in poorly designed and maintained cycle lanes.

It's better not to give the law making busybodies any encouragement.

profpointy
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby profpointy » 21 Oct 2014, 4:01pm

niggle wrote:
profpointy wrote:I'm not entirely sure what "safety clips" are exactly in this context, so my post is to some extent based on blissful ignorance. BUT, and I think it's a valid "but", I'd be vary wary of a so called "safety" feature that made mudguards less securely fitted. OK something caught in the mudguards / wheel will likely cause an "off", but something that allows the mudguards to fall off easier will likely create as many hazards as it removes. The now released mudguards is going to end up somewhere after all!Just because something is titled "safety" doesn't make it so.

But as I've said, I've never seen the things.

Read here for CJ's tireless work on this very real safety issue: http://www.ctc.org.uk/article/technical ... ard-safety


It'd need a good deal to convince me the quick-release jobby didn't present more of a risk than it solves. The risk of mudguards falling off into the spoke, though low, is plausible enough - but the risk of a clip unclipping seems quite real too - and "quick releasing" a mudguard to fly off in the vicinity of the front wheel isn't something I'd be keen on.

"Include me out" as Louis B Mayer might have said

JohnW
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Re: Any law re: safety release on front mudguards?

Postby JohnW » 21 Oct 2014, 4:12pm

JohnW wrote:
mattsccm wrote:I am not so sure that it needs to be a legal issue. Its the riders potential safety and a pretty small concern. Manufactures should have no need obligation to cater for the riders circumstances. Why not have permanently fixed lights, dynamo I suppose.. Same with reflectors. They don't always work. In 35 years of riding ( I don't count as a child) I can only recall one incident where something jammed in a guard and wrapped the guard round the fork and wheel. That guard was fitted with QR's that didn't. They take some shifting!
Risks are so small that its not worth the legislation or to my mind the principle.
By all means let them exist but compulsory. No
Legal requirements have to reasons for existence. To protect others and to protect the user. the former are good, the latter are hard to defend.


I'm sorry matt, but I don't see it your way..................


For the avoidance of confusion, what I mean by "compulsory" is that off-the-peg ready-built bikes should be built with the safety mudguard stays by law, and that the stays bought separately should not, by law, be available without them.

As for making it illegal to ride with non-safety mudguard stays - no, I didn't mean that. I'm sorry if I caused confusion. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: