sreten wrote:Its also ubiquitous in motorcycles for the same reason, even when they go to shaft drive its on the right.
Err, I am afraid that this is patently not true.
All the chain-driven motorcycles I have ridden have the chain on the left-hand side
And there are loads of examples of both chain-drive and shaft-drive (and even some rubber drive-belt) motorcycles that are driven on either left or right side.
pete75 wrote:The wholesale move to to the right, as with politics, is a fairly recent event.
Eh? Every Japanese motorcycle I have ever seen has its final drive chain on the left, starting with my dad's Honda C70, as do all twist and go scooters with v belt final drive, so that is about 99% of all motorcycles I reckon. MZ two strokes had their chains on the right and BMWs have their shaft drives on the right but they really are the exception still...
What many people don't realise, including you it would seem, is that this country once had a large and thriving motorcycle industry and was the world's largest motorcycle producer for many years. Virtually all British bikes had the drive on the left side so at one time almost all bikes had the transmission on the left.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75 wrote: Virtually all British bikes had the drive on the left side so at one time almost all bikes had the transmission on the left.
at that time they were similarly keen on having the gearshift on the right, too.
In fact when the, uh, 'liberated' DKW design became a BSA they were so keen on maintaining handedness in the British way that they built the whole thing as a mirror image, so BSA Bantams have a left side chain and a right side gearshift, but it's communistical half-brother, the baby MZ, was t'other way about, and n'er the twain shall meet....
BTW Mick's talk of dresses and mounting I don't really swallow (it is only slightly more plausible than the swords thing.... ); if there were a shred of weight to it then they would have done it the other way round in other countries, would they not?
Mick F wrote:All this discussion about thread direction is a red herring IMHO.
The inventors of the bicycle had to make a decision - left or right, and they all went to the right. Why? Because it makes sense to have the chainwheel and drive system away from you when you climb off and on and push the machine along on the left.
Remember, cyclists could ride their bikes in voluminous clothing, especially the ladies.
yes but.................... Britain did produce a LOT of cycles, but then so did Europe, who all drive on the other side of the road, who would presumably,with their voluminous clothing, mount the bike from the RHS not the LHS, as to do so would mean standing in the road.
BUT
this brings us to another point, when the first cycles were produced, there were prob no roads, /pavements to speak of, then proper roads started to appear, and 'over there' they decided to be different and drive on the other side. So why not swap drive sides to prevent getting either mucky or squashed.? Will we ever know the true answer?
Brucey wrote:BTW Mick's talk of dresses and mounting I don't really swallow (it is only slightly more plausible than the swords thing.... ); if there were a shred of weight to it then they would have done it the other way round in other countries, would they not?
I see why you think that, but cycling pre-dates the mass driving of automobiles, and also pre-dates which side of the roads people drive on.
It has everything to do with mounting and dismounting a horse, and it usually happens - even now internationally - on the left of the beast. Bicycles were/are another "beast" to be mounted.
pete75 wrote:The wholesale move to to the right, as with politics, is a fairly recent event.
Eh? Every Japanese motorcycle I have ever seen has its final drive chain on the left, starting with my dad's Honda C70, as do all twist and go scooters with v belt final drive, so that is about 99% of all motorcycles I reckon. MZ two strokes had their chains on the right and BMWs have their shaft drives on the right but they really are the exception still...
What many people don't realise, including you it would seem, is that this country once had a large and thriving motorcycle industry and was the world's largest motorcycle producer for many years. Virtually all British bikes had the drive on the left side so at one time almost all bikes had the transmission on the left.
And they still do!!! Not only do I know about the British motorcycle industry but I also know about the side that the final drive chain ran on Brit bikes, i.e. it was the left, which is the same as Japanese motorcycles and so 99% of modern motorcycles!!! There never was a "wholesale move to the right" for motorcycle final drive chains (or shaft or belt drives), just the odd European or American manufacturer like BMW, Harley Davidson, Moto Guzzi, etc.
Brucey wrote:BTW Mick's talk of dresses and mounting I don't really swallow (it is only slightly more plausible than the swords thing.... ); if there were a shred of weight to it then they would have done it the other way round in other countries, would they not?
I see why you think that, but cycling pre-dates the mass driving of automobiles, and also pre-dates which side of the roads people drive on.
It has everything to do with mounting and dismounting a horse, and it usually happens - even now internationally - on the left of the beast. Bicycles were/are another "beast" to be mounted.
mounting and dismounting a horse probably has a lot to with most people being right handed and right footed. There is no other reason why one side should be favoured over another, so past that, it is just a red herring, since if it were to do with the road conditions it would reverse. Even so in most other (drive right) countries cyclists are taught to put their right foot down when they stop; the mad fools, don't they know they are risking an oily trouser cuff or greasy knicker frills? For them it mightn't matter which side the chain is on, if they mount from the left and then put their right foot down in traffic they cop it either way.
I believe that the sides of the road that people drove on were already well established before bike or cars came along; there was plenty of horse-drawn traffic driving down the roads. So again it is a red herring that cars didn't yet exist.
History[edit] In 1998, archaeologists found a well-preserved track leading to a Roman quarry near Swindon, England. The grooves in the road on the left side (viewed facing down the track away from the quarry) were much deeper than those on the right side. These grooves suggest that the Romans drove on the left, at least in this location, since carts would exit the quarry heavily loaded, and enter it empty.[4] Some historians, such as C. Northcote Parkinson, believed that ancient travellers on horseback generally rode on the left side of the road. As more people are right-handed, a horseman would thus be able to hold the reins with his left hand and keep his right hand free—to offer in friendship to passing riders or to defend himself with a sword, if necessary.[41] Traditionally one leads a horse or a horse and cart from the right. This allows the person leading the horse to hold the harness with his/her left and console the horse with the right. It also allows the man to walk on the better drained and less muddy crown of the road. If a wagonner is seated on a wagon and uses a whip, he will hold the whip in the right hand. Driving on the left allows the whip to swing freely and not get snagged in the hedges etc. bordering a road. The history of the keep-left rule can be tracked back to ancient Greece, Egypt and Rome, and was more widely practised than right-side traffic. Ancient Greeks, Egyptians and Romans adhered to the left side while marching their troops. If two men riding on horseback were to start a fight, each would edge toward the left. Thus, they would be able to draw swords from their right and uphold a defensive position. Eventually, this turned into custom, and later, a law.[42] The keep-left rule was doubtless well-established in ancient Rome because of congestion in the city. In the city of Rome, rules banned wagons and chariots during the day; in other parts of the Empire wheeled traffic was banned during the night, so as not to disturb citizens from sleep.[43] Pilgrims who wished to visit the city were instructed to keep to the left side of the road. By the time the Pope ordered instructions to keep left of the road, this rule was already widely used.[43] The regulation has been practised by some countries ever since. There is a popular story that Napoleon changed the rule of the road in the European countries he conquered from keep-left to keep-right. Some justifications are symbolic, such as that Napoleon himself was left- (or right-) handed, or that Britain, Napoleon's enemy, kept left. Alternatively, troops passing on the left may have been tempted to raise their right fists against each other. Forcing them to pass on the right reduced conflict. Hence, island nations such as Britain and Japan (using ships to move troops around and having less need to move them overland) continued to drive on the left.[44] In the late 18th century, the shift from left to right that took place in countries such as the United States was based on teamsters’ use of large freight wagons pulled by several pairs of horses. The wagons had no driver's seat, so a postilion sat on the left rear horse and held his whip in his right hand. Seated on the left, the driver preferred that other wagons pass him on the left so that he could be sure to keep clear of the wheels of oncoming wagons.[45] He did that by driving on the right side of the road.[41] Decisions by countries to drive on the right typically centre on regional uniformity. There are historical exceptions, such as postilion riders in France, but such historical advantages do not apply to modern road vehicles. Change to right-hand traffic[edit]
This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (January 2009) Europe[edit] In the UK, keeping to the left was an ancient custom. The first legal reference in Britain to an order for traffic to keep to the left was in 1756 with regard to London Bridge.[43] The General Highways Act of 1773 contained a recommendation that horse traffic should keep to the left[46] and this was incorporated in the Highway Act 1835.[47][48] The making of a rule was due to the increase in horse traffic by the end of the 18th century. By 1771, the number of coaches rose from 300 in 1639 to 1,000.[43] Countries that became part of the British Empire adopted the British keep-left rule; some have since changed. In Russia, in 1709, the Danish envoy under Peter I noted the widespread custom for traffic in Russia to pass on the right. On 5 February 1752, Empress Elizabeth issued an edict for traffic to keep to the right in Russian cities.[26] In Continental Europe, driving on the right is associated with France and Napoleon Bonaparte. During the French Revolution, a decree of 1792 created a uniform traffic law, requiring traffic to keep to the "common" right. A little later, Napoleon consolidated this position by ordering the military to stay on the right side, even when out of the country, so that everyone who met the French army had to concede the way. In the early 19th century, those countries occupied by or allied to Napoleon – the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, Poland, Spain – adopted right-hand traffic. Britain, Sweden, Austria-Hungary and Portugal continued or adopted left-hand traffic. In Denmark, the keep-right rule was adopted in Copenhagen in 1758, and the rule was adopted for the rest of Denmark in 1793. In Belgium, before 1899 there was no uniform system, with some places driving on the left and others on the right. On 1 August 1899, Belgium changed to right-hand traffic throughout the country.[49] There was a movement in the 20th century towards harmonisation of laws in Europe and there has been a gradual shift from driving on the left to the right. Portugal changed to right-hand traffic in 1928, though the change did not apply to all its overseas territories. Those parts of Italy not already driving on the right changed over in the 1920s after Benito Mussolini came to power. In Spain, there was no uniform national rule until the 1930s. Before then, some parts had driving on the right (e.g., Barcelona) while in others it was on the left (e.g., Madrid). On 1 October 1924, Madrid changed to driving on the right. The Austro-Hungarian Empire drove on the left. Successor countries switched to the right separately. Austria did it in stages, beginning from the west: Vorarlberg in 1919, Tirol and western half of Salzburg in 1930, Carinthia and East Tirol in 1935, Upper Austria, Styria, eastern half of Salzburg in 1 June 1938, and Lower Austria in 19 September 1938. Poland's Galicia switched to the right around 1924. Czechoslovakia planned to start driving on the right on 1 May 1939, but the change in Bohemia and Moravia took place under German occupation: Bohemia: 17 March 1939, Prague: 26 March. (See switch to right-hand traffic in Czechoslovakia for details.) Hungary also acted later than planned: the government planned for a change in June 1939, but postponed it and finally introduced it on 6 July 1941 (outside Budapest), and on 9 November 1941 in Budapest. Sweden changed in 1967 and Iceland did the same in 1968. In Europe only four countries still drive on the left: the United Kingdom, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus, as well as the British Crown Dependencies of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man. Western Hemisphere[edit] All the formerly British, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese colonies in the Americas originally kept to the left, and French colonies kept to the right. The first keep-right law in the United States was passed in 1792 and applied to the Philadelphia and Lancaster Turnpike. New York formalised right-hand traffic in 1804, New Jersey in 1813 and Massachusetts in 1821.[50] By the time the United States annexed Hawaii and French, Spanish, and Russian territories, the keep-right rule already applied there. Today, all US states and territories except the US Virgin Islands drive on the right. The Virgin Islands drove on the left when the United States purchased the former Danish West Indies from Denmark in 1917. Although Denmark drove and still drives on the right, the Danish West Indies drove on the left. Those parts of Canada that were still driving on the left changed over by 1924. Ontario and Québec drove on the right since before their takeover from the French, and were allowed to retain the custom. The central provinces also drove on the right. The eastern and western provinces changed to the right in stages: British Columbia on 1 January 1922, New Brunswick on 1 December 1922, Nova Scotia on 15 April 1923,[51] and Prince Edward Island on 1 May 1924. Newfoundland changed to driving on the right on January 2, 1947 before becoming part of Canada in 1949.[52] Brazil changed to right-hand traffic in 1928, at the same time as Portugal.[53] Before then, Brazil had no uniform rule.[54] During the planning of the Pan American Highway from Alaska to Cape Horn in the 1930s, it was decided that the road should use right-hand driving on its entire length. Panama changed to right-hand traffic in 1943[55] and Argentina,[56] Paraguay[57] and Uruguay[58] did the same in 1945. British Honduras (now Belize) changed to right-hand traffic on 1 October 1961.[59] Guyana and Suriname as well as most English-speaking Caribbean countries are the only countries in the Americas that drive on the left. Both Guyana and Suriname are separated from their neighbours by large rivers, with the first bridge crossing one of these waterways (the Takutu Bridge between Guyana and Brazil) having opened in 2009.[60] Asia and Africa[edit] The French introduced right-hand traffic in all of its overseas territories, including those of Africa, Indo-China and Oceania. East Timor had traffic on the left until 1928, when it changed to the right at the same time as its colonial power, Portugal. During Japanese occupation during World War II driving on the left was imposed, and when the Portuguese returned it changed back to the right. Under Indonesian rule, East Timor changed back to driving on the left in 1976, and has continued the practice under UN administration from 1999 and since independence in 2002. The Philippines kept to the left (if such rules were enforced at all) during the Spanish colonial period and changed to the right during the United States period. Where Japanese occupation reached, driving would be on the left and in liberated areas reverted to right-hand traffic by 1945. China adopted a uniform right-hand traffic law in 1946. Taiwan drove on the left under Japanese rule, and changed to driving on the right in 1946 at the same time as the Chinese mainland. Hong Kong and Macau, which remain special administrative territories of China, still drive on the left. Former Japanese colony Korea changed to driving on the right at the end of World War II, when Soviet-backed forces occupied North Korea and American forces arrived in South Korea. Driving on the right was implemented in both territories because military vehicles were now either American-made or Russian-built LHD models.[61] The Japanese prefecture of Okinawa drove on the right under US control after World War II, since 24 June 1945. In 1972 Okinawa was returned to Japanese sovereignty, and on 30 July 1978 reverted to left-hand traffic. Burma changed to driving on the right in 1970, allegedly on the advice of "a wizard".[62] [63] In Africa, colonial administrators usually determined on which side of the road traffic would drive. British and Portuguese territories kept to the left, while French and German territories kept to the right. After independence some countries kept the previous rules, and others changed. The most common reason for countries to switch to right-hand traffic is to harmonise with neighbours, to improve road safety and commerce. Several former British colonies changed to driving on the right, because they all have extensive borders with former French colonies which drive on the right: the Gambia (changed on 1 October 1965), Sierra Leone (1 March 1971), Nigeria (2 April 1972) and Ghana (4 August 1974). Ethiopia changed to right-hand traffic in 1964, and Sudan changed in August 1973 to accord with most other countries of the Arab world. South Yemen, until 1963 the British colony of Aden, changed to driving on the right on 1 January 1977; North Yemen already drove on the right. Change to left-hand traffic[edit] The former Portuguese colony of Mozambique continues to drive on the left, which is a legacy of its Portuguese past, even though Portugal itself changed over in the 1920s. Mozambique continues to drive on the left because all its bordering countries, which were in the British Empire, do. Namibia was a German colony from 1884 until the First World War, and kept to the right. After its occupation by South Africa in 1918, it changed to the left. When it obtained independence in 1990, it maintained left-side traffic as do its neighbours South Africa and Botswana. Samoa changed to left-hand traffic in September 2009.[64][65][66] The government brought about the change to bring Samoa into line with other South Pacific nations, and also sought to encourage the roughly 170,000 Samoan expatriates in Australia and New Zealand to ship their used cars back to Samoa.[32] Rwanda, a former Belgian colony in central Africa, drives on the right. The government is considering changing to driving on the left, to bring the country in line with other members of the East African Community (EAC).[67] Burundi, the only other EAC member that currently drives on the right, is also considering switching to left-hand traffic.[21] Foreign occupation and annexation[edit] Many countries have temporarily or permanently changed their rule of the road as a result of foreign occupation or annexation. Though Austria, Czechoslovakia and Hungary had plans to change to driving on the right, the change took place under German occupation in the 1930s and 1940s: Austria at the Anschluss and see switch to right-hand traffic in Czechoslovakia for details. In the Faroe Islands left-hand driving was in force on the island of Vágar during the British occupation in World War II. The Channel Islands changed to driving on the right under German occupation, but changed back after liberation in 1945. The Falkland Islands had right-hand driving under the brief Argentine control during the 1982 Falklands War, although many islanders continued to drive on the left as an act of defiance.[68] Road vehicle configurations[edit]
Agree with Brucey, the convention of riding and driving on the left had been established centuries before the bicycle and passed into law for the whole of the country in 1835. This is the version currently in force: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Wil ... section/78
If the Driver of any Waggon, Cart, or other Carriage whatsoever, or of any Horses, Mules, or other Beast of Draught or Burthen, meeting any other Waggon, Cart, or other Carriage, or Horses, Mules, or other Beasts of Burthen, shall not keep his Waggon, Cart, or Carriage, or Horses, Mules, or other Beasts of Burthen, on the Left or Near Side of the Road; or if any Person shall in any Manner wilfully prevent any other Person from passing him, or any Waggon, Cart, or other Carriage, or Horses, Mules, or other Beasts of Burthen, under his Care, upon such Highway, or by Negligence or Misbehaviour prevent, hinder, or interrupt the free Passage of any Person, Waggon, Cart, or other Carriage, or Horses, Mules, or other Beasts of Burthen, on any Highway, or shall not keep his Waggon, Cart, or other Carriage, or Horses, Mules, or other Beasts of Burthen, on the Left or Near Side of the Road, for the Purpose of allowing such Passage... ...and being convicted of any such offence, either by his own confession, the view of a justice, or by the oath of one or more credible witnesses, before any two justices of the peace, shall in addition to any civil action to which he may make himself liable, for every such offence forfeit any sum not exceeding [level 1 on the standard scale].
yostumpy wrote:this brings us to another point, when the first cycles were produced, there were prob no roads, /pavements to speak of, then proper roads started to appear, and 'over there' they decided to be different and drive on the other side. So why not swap drive sides to prevent getting either mucky or squashed.? Will we ever know the true answer?
The same statute is the one which prohibits riding and driving on pavements (again, still in force). The suggestion that roads and pavements did not exist in the early/mid 19th century is false.
niggle wrote:Eh? Every Japanese motorcycle I have ever seen has its final drive chain on the left, starting with my dad's Honda C70, as do all twist and go scooters with v belt final drive, so that is about 99% of all motorcycles I reckon. MZ two strokes had their chains on the right and BMWs have their shaft drives on the right but they really are the exception still...
What many people don't realise, including you it would seem, is that this country once had a large and thriving motorcycle industry and was the world's largest motorcycle producer for many years. Virtually all British bikes had the drive on the left side so at one time almost all bikes had the transmission on the left.
And they still do!!! Not only do I know about the British motorcycle industry but I also know about the side that the final drive chain ran on Brit bikes, i.e. it was the left, which is the same as Japanese motorcycles and so 99% of modern motorcycles!!! There never was a "wholesale move to the right" for motorcycle final drive chains (or shaft or belt drives), just the odd European or American manufacturer like BMW, Harley Davidson, Moto Guzzi, etc.
Dunno. My CB72 certainly had the final drive on the right.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Bicycler wrote:Agree with Brucey, the convention of riding and driving on the left had been established centuries before the bicycle and passed into law for the whole of the country in 1835.
yostumpy wrote:this brings us to another point, when the first cycles were produced, there were prob no roads, /pavements to speak of, then proper roads started to appear, and 'over there' they decided to be different and drive on the other side. So why not swap drive sides to prevent getting either mucky or squashed.? Will we ever know the true answer?
The same statute is the one which prohibits riding and driving on pavements (again, still in force). The suggestion that roads and pavements did not exist in the early/mid 19th century is false.
And one of the things the Romans did for us was build roads.....
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
); if there were a shred of weight to it then they would have done it the other way round in other countries, would they not? 
)