Thorn Audax upgrades

[531colin]

Which hubs are more common, Hope or Shimano?
I have seen more broken Hope flanges than Shimano, and please don't tell me that Shimano hubs are all low mileage.
One customer's rear Hope hub flange failed before the rim wore out, I built him up a Shimano hub, then the front failed, I built him up a Shimano hub....the Shimano wheels went over the highest "road" in the Himalayas.
I believe Shimano hub bodies are forged, and Hope turned from billet, like other boutique hubs, but I will take more notice of Brucey's opinion than my own on stuff like that.

[pwa]

My advice would be to make the bike yours.

On my audax bike I have bar end shifters, mainly because they give a free choice of front mech and chainset, and they work better with triples than STIs.

I use a triple because I want that very low 30f x 32r for steep hills when I'm tiring. A 34 chainring is a bit too big for me when I'm tired.

Shimano hubs (Ultegra) tick all the boxes for me. They run well, are quiet (unlike Hope) and last a long time if occasionally maintained.

I like Hope headsets.

Saddle is a Gilles Berthoud, which is like a Brooks but with all the main Brooks problems addressed. All except the need to break it in. Every part of the saddle (including the top) can be replaced by me in a matter of minutes should I have a problem. And the quality of the parts is exceptional.

[Brucey]

... you have several boxes full of broken bike parts and it causes me to wonder why you keep buying them?

you have several sets of hope hubs, if they started breaking you would soon have a box full..?

I have hope on as many parts as I can on our bikes, they have been more reliable than anything else. hubs on mtb and road/tourer, headsets and brakes. they have not let me down.

I like the headsets, the BBs, the brakes; but the hubs do crack too often for my liking. They use a 2000 series material IIRC. Some other boutique hubs use even more ill-considered materials (for UK winter use) and they crack even worse.

cheers

[reohn2]

Thanks for replies,

Why wide and not ultra wide ?.......

It depends what you call 'ultra wide'.I tend to ride a low gear range 22" to 90"(26/34/46 with 14-32 8sp cassette)I've no need for 10sp.
That range covers 20% hills with a high enough top gear for 30mph when I have a tail wind and I'm feeling frisky,which at 62 is less and less these days
If I wish to go lower I can fit a 24t inner ring on the Stronglight Impact c/set*,and or fit a 34t bottom cog on the cassette.

*which is the same as Spa's own brand TD2

If you're having trouble with hub choice I see nothing wrong with Deore they are good solid reliable hubs.

[AlastairS]

If you're having trouble with hub choice I see nothing wrong with Deore they are good solid reliable hubs.

I do have Deore on my Dawes galaxy - never let me down. If the LX are smother, lighter or some other benefit then may be worth buying ?

The frame and fork costs £440 with frame prep. Do you think I can get all this building it myself, and save at least £200 ?

Sorry frame is £425 + £140 (light 853 fork which I would like) + £15 prep = £580. Do you still think I can save at least £200 ?

Yes. It's not difficult to build a bike, once the frame has been prepped.

I'm unsure if I should build the bike myself. I am concerned I would not know what parts to buy as I am not knowledgeable in bike parts. If I get Thorn to do it then I know it will be a good build. I have a bike stand and some tools and I don't mind getting my hands dirty. I wouldn't want the build to take along time though (4 weeks would be okay(part of weekends and mid week evenings) including sourcing all the components). What do you all think ? Colin I would appreciate your opinion please.

[CREPELLO]

If you're having trouble with hub choice I see nothing wrong with Deore they are good solid reliable hubs.

I do have Deore on my Dawes galaxy - never let me down. If the LX are smother, lighter or some other benefit then may be worth buying ?

LX are not lighter or smoother, but have better quality beraings and a better free hub. It's all marginal though. Oh, and the LX have a finer finish.

The frame and fork costs £440 with frame prep. Do you think I can get all this building it myself, and save at least £200 ?

Sorry frame is £425 + £140 (light 853 fork which I would like) + £15 prep = £580. Do you still think I can save at least £200 ?

I don't see how you can save £200 here if you buy the Thorn and the 853 fork? Save £15 if you did you frame prep yourself. Or am I missing something? If you bought an equally good framset such as the Spa Audax you could save money of course. But I'm not clear here whether your aim is to buy the best equipment or to save money where feasable? BTW, the 853 fork isn't significantly lighter. I'm pretty sure I saw a weight quoted of c1000g in the catalogue. It's largely all down to the long fatter 1.1/8" steerer.

Yes. It's not difficult to build a bike, once the frame has been prepped.

I'm unsure if I should build the bike myself. I am concerned I would not know what parts to buy as I am not knowledgeable in bike parts. If I get Thorn to do it then I know it will be a good build. I have a bike stand and some tools and I don't mind getting my hands dirty. I wouldn't want the build to take along time though (4 weeks would be okay(part of weekends and mid week evenings) including sourcing all the components). What do you all think ? Colin I would appreciate your opinion please.

Well you've asked enough questions to have formed a body of knowledge on the most suitable parts. If you're still not sure, the best thing is to buy what most people are using.

If you're not building the wheels, you have the frame prepped and the headset is installed by somebody else, assembling your bike is straightforward.

[531colin]

Its difficult to put myself in somebody else's shoes......while I was still at school I was fixing my dad's bike and tandem.....whereas I have bought some whole bikes, for bikes I was really interested in I have mostly bought frames and bits.....
I would say if you have done a particular job on a bike before and you are confident to do it again, then you will be confident to do that job on an expensive new bike.
If there is a job you have never done before, an expensive new bike isn't the obvious place to learn.
If you tape the handlebars wrong, you can do it again.
Most hubs I have come across are set up too tight from new and will wear needlessly, and most shops don't correct this because if they do, the hubs may need re-adjusting after a few hundred miles. Similarly headsets are often supplied too tight. Its a good idea to learn how to set up your own bearings, even if you never intend to install a new headset, or build a complete bike.
.....don't suppose that helped at all.....sorry!

[Samuel D]

There isn’t a hope you’d save £200 by building it yourself. An experienced mechanic with a quality toolkit and a shed-full of bits and pieces might. Otherwise you should only build the bike yourself if you are at least somewhat mechanically talented and you do it for the love of it.

As for setup, I’d advise you buy a bog-standard bike so Thorn can take it back or you can sell it easily if you decide you really want a mountain bike in a fortnight.

If you're not building the wheels, you have the frame prepped and the headset is installed by somebody else, assembling your bike is straightforward.

It’s straightforward for someone who’s tinkered with mechanical things for decades whether professionally or for fun. If you work in an office and live in a city, as many people do, it is not straightforward. I have seen some appalling set-ups. In fact, more often than not when I see a bike I find elements that I consider inelegant or inefficient if not downright dangerous. And that includes the bicycles of serious cyclists training in groups. Most of them have no idea how badly they’ve done the job and are happily telling others that building a bike is easy.

While it may have been true in 1950 that most people (or men in those days) knew how to use hand tools, it just isn’t true today. I’m not even saying that’s a bad thing (probably it’s not). But it’s the way it is. Most people can’t hammer in a nail straight, much less make fine judgements on things like cable housing length and headset torque.

[pedalsheep]

This is my experience of Hope hubs.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=62323&p=531063&hilit=hope+hub+failure#p531063

[andrewjoseph]

Which hubs are more common, Hope or Shimano?
I have seen more broken Hope flanges than Shimano, and please don't tell me that Shimano hubs are all low mileage.
One customer's rear Hope hub flange failed before the rim wore out, I built him up a Shimano hub, then the front failed, I built him up a Shimano hub....the Shimano wheels went over the highest "road" in the Himalayas.
I believe Shimano hub bodies are forged, and Hope turned from billet, like other boutique hubs, but I will take more notice of Brucey's opinion than my own on stuff like that.

I can only speak form my experience, the hubs on two mtb's (mine and my wife's) are hope and hers are are over 10 years old and not had a problem. the old wheels of my mtb have hope hubs and are also over 12 years old, they have been retired in favour of another set of hope hubbed wheels because the old rims started to feel suspect and my confidence in them was waning when riding steep downhill and boulder fields.

I had shimano cup and cone hubs when we first started riding mtb's and through my own inexperience i neglected them and they corroded. i then went to hope, as negligence of the same magnitude would only need new bearings and not new hubs.

I have not experienced breaks in shimano hubs but i only used them for a year or so. i have been using hope for about 12 years of serious mtb and, as i said, my wife's are still going and mine were replaced last year. i know cup and cone can last decades but i don't want the addition faff that they require.

[andrewjoseph]

... you have several boxes full of broken bike parts and it causes me to wonder why you keep buying them?

you have several sets of hope hubs, if they started breaking you would soon have a box full..?
...

cheers

I see your point and I was being slightly facetious, but it did sound as if you kept buying parts that were breaking. and no, if my parts were broken I would throw them out, keeping only the parts that may be re-used.

[honesty]

I bought mine as a frame, had it built up (by an lbs for a lot less than thorn were going to charge) with wheels , drive train, STIs, etc. from a claud butler dalesman then have been upgrading and replacing parts for the last 3 or so years either when I had the money for it or less likely when parts wore out.

I had deore hubs originally, I have ultegra hub/son hub now and XT on another bike. Apart from the bling I don't really notice the difference...

[CREPELLO]

There isn’t a hope you’d save £200 by building it yourself. An experienced mechanic with a quality toolkit and a shed-full of bits and pieces might. Otherwise you should only build the bike yourself if you are at least somewhat mechanically talented and you do it for the love of it.

--------------

If you're not building the wheels, you have the frame prep'd and the headset is installed by somebody else, assembling your bike is straightforward.

It’s straightforward for someone who’s tinkered with mechanical things for decades whether professionally or for fun. If you work in an office and live in a city, as many people do, it is not straightforward. I have seen some appalling set-ups. In fact, more often than not when I see a bike I find elements that I consider inelegant or inefficient if not downright dangerous. And that includes the bicycles of serious cyclists training in groups. Most of them have no idea how badly they’ve done the job and are happily telling others that building a bike is easy.

While it may have been true in 1950 that most people (or men in those days) knew how to use hand tools, it just isn’t true today. I’m not even saying that’s a bad thing (probably it’s not). But it’s the way it is. Most people can’t hammer in a nail straight, much less make fine judgements on things like cable housing length and headset torque.

Whilst I agree that some degree of mechanical aptitude is ideal for assembling a bike, enthusiasm can help overcome initial short comings. If you remove all the difficult tasks (wheel building, headset fitting, frame prep), then it is little more than a bolting together exercize, as long as you follow correct procedure. Skills like adjusting hubs and replacing bearings are something which we should encourage every cyclist to accomplish. Correct torque settings for bolts can be achieved with a torque wrench. All the other skills (eg, setting up gears) are readily learnt from various internet sources, such as this.

As for setup, I’d advise you buy a bog-standard bike so Thorn can take it back or you can sell it easily if you decide you really want a mountain bike in a fortnight.

Having said all that, I think I would agree with you here. For Alistair to make a safe choice, having the Thorn 14 day money back facility is an option that shouldn't be dismissed. Especially as he won't have test ridden the bike previously. It would probably all give us peace of mind

The only question now is the ideal frame size.

[Samuel D]

Whilst I agree that some degree of mechanical aptitude is ideal for assembling a bike, enthusiasm can help overcome initial short comings. If you remove all the difficult tasks (wheel building, headset fitting, frame prep), then it is little more than a bolting together exercize, as long as you follow correct procedure.

Enthusiasm goes a long way, for sure. But even bolting things together can be done well or badly. For example, people who are not mechanically minded seldom know the preload function of a washer. Therefore they think washers are not needed in places where they really are. This leads to fastenings coming apart somewhere down the road.

By the way, Alastair, don’t mind me. I’m just jealous you’re getting a Thorn Audax.

[PH]

Basic bike £1239
Pro plt finishing kit. £38
853 fork £140
105 STIs £85
DTSwiss RR440 700c (622) road rim 32h £100
Schwalbe Marathon Supreme HS382 Folding Tyre - 700 x 28 £34
About £1650 - not cheap!

The only things on that list that I think would make a noticeable difference are the STIs and the tyres. I can't help feeling that if you've chosen a bike that needs £430 of upgrades you've chosen the wrong bike. It looks a little expensive at the top price, for the upgraded price I think it's too much for what it is.
Remember you get 14 days to try the bike, if you don't like the fork and wheels send it back and buy one with the bits you think would be better.