"CARTALL" or "CARTHALL"

[JohnW]

Whilst I visit regularly, I don't live in Portsmouth/Southsea. I am therefore not at all familiar with local traditions or framebuilders. Whilst I'm down there I often have a look in any bike shops/bike-junkshops that I come across. I found one last Wednesday, on the corner of Albert Road and Beatrice Road - it was really a characterful bike-junkshop - full of bikes, frames and bits of all kinds and all ages - too dark to see very much in detail, but one of those establishments where you suspect that somewhere, among all the gloom, there may be lurking a hidden and forgotten gem.

The proprietor was a nice chap, not exactly wearing a Saville Row suit, and whilst more characterful than sophisticated, he was candid, keen to chat and very pleasant. He realised from our conversation that I was a bike enthusiast and he asked me if I knew of a framebuilder by the name of "Carter and Hall", or "Carthall". I don't, and not being local to Portsmouth I wasn't likely to. Looking on the "Classic Framebuilders" web-site I've found nothing.

However, in the shop were two frames with "Carthall" transfers and with badge-transfers on the head-tubes. The frames were a Mixte and a traditional diamond mans frame. The frames were in the gloom and too far away to see all the details clearly - and I was pushed for time. The frames were handbuilt, lugged steel frames and looked of some quality - the mans frame looked to have Campag rear drop-outs. The frames were partially built-up bikes, and the mans had a TA chainset, Sun-Tour gears (said by the proprietor to be 'Cyclone') and Mafac centre-pull brakes.

The odd thing was that they were both the same (orange) colour - so they were probably either made to order frames or something like Claude Butlers re-sprayed for a loving couple - "His-n'-Hers".

The gloom and inaccessibility, and my being pushed for time, stopped me from really examining the frames, but if anyone knows anything about them, I'd be interested to know.................and, if you live in the area, they may be of some interest to you.

Beatrice Road runs off Albert Road on the south side (same side as the Festing pub) and a little to the east of Waverly Road.

[tatanab]

Carter and Hall (Nobby and his wife Olive) were in Sultan road but relocated to New Road in about 1966 to take over another bike shop premises left by the retirement of Horace Lamb. They were one of 3 lightweight shops in Portsmouth at that time and were my introduction to cycling, the CTC and racing etc. It was my usual hang out for a couple of hours on a Saturday morning. The New Road shop is now converted to flats. The other lightweight shops of the time were Bill Harvell in Hilsea (ex Olympic rider) and Wally Errington (I cannot remember the name of the business) in Arundel Street

Frames were branded Carhall, but were not built by Nobby or anybody attached to the business. Like many shops he bought trade frames and had them labelled with his own name. Much the same as many shops and even frame builders do with Taiwanese frames in modern times. I know for a fact that he had a batch from Witcomb in the early 1970s. He kept a good array of frames to cover the spectrum of schoolboy budget (Claud Butler gas pipe frames) to good quality such as Major Nichols, MKM, Knight and Bob Jackson and consequently saw a fair bit of business from me as my interest and budget grew.

[JohnW]

Thank you for all that tatanab - you've broadened my education an my knowledge.

"Carhall" then, I should have looked more carefully.

Not being a native to the area I don't know of any of the bike-shops that you refer to - I started visiting regularly as recently as 2000 so that's not surprising.

The next time I'm down there I'll pop in and give the chap the info you've sent me.

I've visited two bike shops in North-End - one is quite a large outfit and the other was a couple of blocks to the north of that, and run by a CTC member..........it seems to have closed down now - do you know what happened to it? I quite liked the smaller shop, although my daughter elected to have her bike from the larger establishment.

I don't know where you're based now, but if you did pop in to the shop on Albert Road that I've referred to, let me know what you think. It did occur to me that the frames may be Claude Butlers, and resprayed by/for someone but from what you say, they could be more interesting than that.

Thank you again.

John.

[tatanab]

I live 150 miles away. As I remember, his shop in New Road closed in the early 1980s. I've been past the modern North End shops you've described, but only when visitingrelatives, so I have no first hand information.

Claude Butlers

Is that Claud's sister? If the are Claud Butlers then they will be 70s/80s and hence badged by Holdsworthy who owned the name at that time. I very very much doubt Nobby would put his name on stock Holdsworthy frames, so I'd say they are something better - unless a later owner did it.

[Brucey]

I grew up only 25 miles away but knew almost nothing of the bike shops in Portsmouth, so that is interesting. If the frames in question are in fact rebadged Witcombs that should be evident from the lugwork etc vs many other frames.

Myself and one other rider in the first club I was in had Witcomb frames back in the 1970s (for some reason we gravitated towards London to buy lightweight kit) and it seems his default back then for a clubman's frame was huge clearances (for Mafac CPs and 27" wheels), slack angles, and plenty of fork offset giving a low trail setup. Both my frame and my chum's had campag long pattern dropouts and short point lugs, filed almost to nothing not only on the points, but all over in the case of the head lugs.

cheers

[JohnW]

.............Claude Butlers

Is that Claud's sister?................[/quote]

Oh dear - sorry about that - although you never know

I think that what you (and Brucey) say is right - about the frames not being re-sprayed Claud Butler (or Holdsworth) - the head badges were transfers and there was no sign of any removed/filled rivet holes. Certainly the lugwork looked (in that gloom remember) very neat and sharp.

Anyway, thanks again.

[ChrisButch]

Not directly relevant to this question, but does anybody here know anything about Bill Harmsworth, who ran a bike shop in the Copnor Road area of Portsmouth in the 1950s/60s?

[tatanab]

Bill Harmsworth died only a few years ago. I knew him from 1968 onwards and was never aware of him having a bike shop. I believe he did some repairs from home near Copnor Road. One of his skills was reblocking Brooks saddles.

Edit - possibly the shop you remember is Hardisty's which was just north of Copnor bridge. A general cycle shop run by a very pleasant chap. When he retired in the early 70s the shop was taken over by "the brothers". I do not recall the name of the business but they had relocated from the bombsite clearance of Lake Road (yes Portsmouth had bombsites into the 1970s) . The brothers were handy because they always had a good stock of degrade/seconds in tyres. I remember buying John Bull tyres from them.

[Brucey]

My Witcomb never had a riveted head badge, just a transfer, so that is another clue I guess.

BTW if you ever see a WItcomb with the paint off, the shorelines will likely be *perfect*.

cheers

[ChrisButch]

Bill Harmsworth died only a few years ago. I knew him from 1968 onwards and was never aware of him having a bike shop. I believe he did some repairs from home near Copnor Road. One of his skills was reblocking Brooks saddles.

Edit - possibly the shop you remember is Hardisty's which was just north of Copnor bridge. A general cycle shop run by a very pleasant chap. When he retired in the early 70s the shop was taken over by "the brothers". I do not recall the name of the business but they had relocated from the bombsite clearance of Lake Road (yes Portsmouth had bombsites into the 1970s) . The brothers were handy because they always had a good stock of degrade/seconds in tyres. I remember buying John Bull tyres from them.

Thanks, Tantanab. Yes, you're right - memory playing tricks, Yes, it was Hardisty (although my father did know Bill Harmsworth also). At that time Hardisty's was the unofficial 'club shop' for Portsmouth DA, although allegiances may subsequently have changed. The reason I asked was that my father got Hardisty to build up my very first bike.

[JohnW]

Thank you everybody - do keep this coming.

It's beginning to appear that the frames may be more interesting than I'd anticipated. I'll have to look in again on this shop, next time I'm down there...........possibly October now.

If anyone does go into the shop to look, tell me what you think, won't you?

I've just looked on the Witcomb page on the "Classic Lightweights" website. No mention of "Cartall" on there of course, but the illustrated frames had fancier lugs than the frames I've seen...........although the 'mixte' wouldn't have what we'd recognise as fancy lugs anyway.

How would I know if either of the frames were a Witcomb?

[tatanab]

No mention of "Cartall"

CARHALL

How would I know if either of the frames were a Witcomb?

Witcomb was just an example, since I know he had a batch in the 70s. Several other suppliers were probably used including Rotrax according to this piece
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224748 I suspect that an order from Rotrax would have been a custom build rather than a batch of trade frames.

[Sfazzer]

Where are the serial numbers on these and what is yours.

[ANTONISH]

My Witcomb never had a riveted head badge, just a transfer, so that is another clue I guess.

BTW if you ever see a WItcomb with the paint off, the shorelines will likely be *perfect*.

cheers

My 63 Witcomb has a riveted head badge.

[kmarles]

Just came across this thread. If you're still interested, I knew Nobby quite well, most of his carhall branded frames were from Woodrup who are still going.