Leading rides on busy roads.

For discussions within the Cycle Training profession.
Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 490
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 12 Nov 2019, 3:38pm

mjr wrote:
mattsccm wrote: Should there be a need to single out the outer rider drops back into the space created by the inner rider in row 2 who has dropped back. A decent group knows and does this. It was banged into club newbies from day one. Of course now we have people who learn to ride on the www and by watching racing on telly. Not a clue.

One thing the www has revealed is where clubs differ and whether the right rider overtakes or drops back when singling out is another thing like which way is "car up" - even long-established decent clubs disagree!

This is the main reason I ( mostly ) refuse to ride with ‘clubs’. The amount of times I’ve witnessed screw ups ( some leading to pile ups, where riders have been hospitalised) because the clubby riders really don’t seem to have a clue, how to deal with evolving situations ( but seem to think they do, and what they’re doing is ‘right’) puts me right off. Most of the ‘clubby’ riders I’ve encountered have been the worst riders I’ve ever ridden with. There have been a few exceptions, but they tend to be the very experienced ( possibly former / current pro )types. Those have tended to be a rare exception, so I won’t ride with clubs, just in case.

pedals2slowly
Posts: 101
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 7:50pm

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby pedals2slowly » 12 Nov 2019, 3:43pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
pedals2slowly wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:“Car front” and “car back” don’t give you the third ( crucial ) bit of info, (what’s the vehicle doing). Hence the reason for the ( very much existent ) standard.


Please explain why you need more information other than 'car-front' meaning a car is coming towards your front and 'car-back' meaning a car is coming towards your back?

As noted some people use car up to mean car in front.

'car-front' is unambiguous which is crucial for safety.


No, wrong, “car front” misses the crucial, implication of what the vehicle is doing relative to the group. I’ll quite happily ‘ball out’ an ‘experienced’ group who get that wrong. If it’s a more beginners oriented group, maybe not so much.


Please explain how 'Car-down' imparts more information apart from being construed in two different ways, or none at all?

pedals2slowly
Posts: 101
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 7:50pm

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby pedals2slowly » 12 Nov 2019, 3:47pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
mjr wrote:
mattsccm wrote: Should there be a need to single out the outer rider drops back into the space created by the inner rider in row 2 who has dropped back. A decent group knows and does this. It was banged into club newbies from day one. Of course now we have people who learn to ride on the www and by watching racing on telly. Not a clue.

One thing the www has revealed is where clubs differ and whether the right rider overtakes or drops back when singling out is another thing like which way is "car up" - even long-established decent clubs disagree!

This is the main reason I ( mostly ) refuse to ride with ‘clubs’. The amount of times I’ve witnessed screw ups ( some leading to pile ups, where riders have been hospitalised) because the clubby riders really don’t seem to have a clue, how to deal with evolving situations ( but seem to think they do, and what they’re doing is ‘right’) puts me right off. Most of the ‘clubby’ riders I’ve encountered have been the worst riders I’ve ever ridden with. There have been a few exceptions, but they tend to be the very experienced ( possibly former / current pro )types. Those have tended to be a rare exception, so I won’t ride with clubs, just in case.


Hence the need for a standard which is understood by both experienced and inexperienced club riders.
I only got into cycle training because I saw horrendous cycling by experienced, long time cyclists who couldn't ride safely either by themselves or in a group.
Jargon is considered dangerous, costly and non-productive in industry, let's ditch it.

pedals2slowly
Posts: 101
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 7:50pm

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby pedals2slowly » 12 Nov 2019, 3:49pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:If you’re saying “ car up ahead” you’ve added another word, that could be a crucial time period, dependant on relative group / vehicle speed. Again, to say “ car back “ requires you to form the ‘plosive’ b, which interrupts the more flowing r-u sound. Try it, your lips don’t meet each other, until the ‘plosive’, p at the end of the phrase with “car up” which means you can achieve and sustain a relatively higher volume as well ( again, this could be crucial).


Not as crucial as either not being understood at all or misinterpreted.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 14156
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mjr » 12 Nov 2019, 4:08pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:If you’re saying “ car up ahead” you’ve added another word [...]

No, they only say "car up" but a KLCC rider will mean "car up ahead" while a WNCTC rider will mean "car moving up the group".

Marcus Aurelius wrote:No, wrong, “car front” misses the crucial, implication of what the vehicle is doing relative to the group. I’ll quite happily ‘ball out’ an ‘experienced’ group who get that wrong.

"car up" says even less than "car front" in most uses!

And how do groups react to you getting your balls out and flashing them as a rebuke?!? Unless you're talking about those red flashing saddle testicle rear lights, that sounds rather unpleasant, as well as impressively acrobatic and dangerous to do while riding!

Marcus Aurelius wrote:This is the main reason I ( mostly ) refuse to ride with ‘clubs’. The amount of times I’ve witnessed screw ups ( some leading to pile ups, where riders have been hospitalised) because the clubby riders really don’t seem to have a clue, how to deal with evolving situations ( but seem to think they do, and what they’re doing is ‘right’) puts me right off. Most of the ‘clubby’ riders I’ve encountered have been the worst riders I’ve ever ridden with. There have been a few exceptions, but they tend to be the very experienced ( possibly former / current pro )types. Those have tended to be a rare exception, so I won’t ride with clubs, just in case.

Have you ever considered that the problem may not be everyone else apart from a few exceptions? That maybe simply refusing to follow the convention for whatever group you're riding with is far more dangerous than their convention being imperfect?

Not that you'd be unusual. This is why I think there will probably never be a standard. If there are groups that have been going 90+ years doing it different ways still after all this time, I don't think convincing arguments to persuade them to adopt any particular conventions will be found. Even if there is some Groupbikeability standard set, they won't comply and then we'll have 15 standards instead of 14.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

mattheus
Posts: 902
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mattheus » 13 Nov 2019, 9:10am

pedals2slowly wrote:Jargon is considered dangerous, costly and non-productive in industry, let's ditch it.

That's an over-simplification. Industry-specific jargon is common-place and efficient, if chosen wisely and according to context.

One could argue that the words "left" and "right" are confusing jargon! : P

(actually that may be a good example - they are very very common words, but they are confusing to a small but notable minority ... )

pedals2slowly
Posts: 101
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 7:50pm

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby pedals2slowly » 13 Nov 2019, 2:33pm

mattheus wrote:One could argue that the words "left" and "right" are confusing jargon! : P


It would appear that you could argue with anything......... : P

User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 3787
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby pjclinch » 14 Nov 2019, 8:46am

mattheus wrote:One could argue that the words "left" and "right" are confusing jargon! : P

(actually that may be a good example - they are very very common words, but they are confusing to a small but notable minority ... )


Always a problem on Bikeability courses.

The definitive explanation is as follows:

Hold your hands out with the palms facing down.
Your right hand is the one with the thumb on the left.

(always good for a "hear the gears clicking in their heads" moment)
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

mattsccm
Posts: 2767
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mattsccm » 23 Nov 2019, 9:12pm

Ref page 2. BC and CUK can keep their damn noses out. The former should stick to sport which it does well and was why it was formed. CUk should stick to touring which is why it was formed. Poking into other peoples business is not theirs.
The reason why the outside file generally drops back is that it easier to slow down and pull in than speed up to do so. The outer file is usually the one that needs to move over. Groups that know each other know this and when to be different. A newbie will soon be told. Groups that can't do this should stay in sportifes when they belong. And away from me!

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 2911
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Dec 2019, 12:26pm

Regarding calls giving the 'crucial extra information' of the direction of the vehicle; why is this crucial? The vehicle only needs to be called for if it is approaching. Does anyone call for a vehicle behind the group and travelling in the opposite direction? Or for one ahead of the group and moving in the same direction? What useful information does this give?

You might want to call out for a vehicle parked or stationary ahead. In that case the call round here is "Car left" (or occasionally "bus right" or whatever). Also, "easy" meaning "slow down". (As distinct from "slowing" which tends mean the riders at the front of the group are themselves slowing.) I'm sure multiple variations can be found.

landsurfer
Posts: 5028
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby landsurfer » 5 Dec 2019, 12:45pm

Why is anyone leading rides ?
Are these rides for children ?
Why would any group of adult cyclists need a Leader ?
What do they do ...?

This is genuinely baffling, i ride in groups all the time .... but no one is the leader .... The faster ones tend to be in front, they get to T junctions first to allow them to argue over the route, the slower ones catch up and tell the squabblers which direction to go ...
Pretty normal for cyclists.

But Leaders ...... no, don't see how that works...
Mike Hall, Jenny Graham .. Respect.
The Road Goes On Forever.

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 2911
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Dec 2019, 1:07pm

While I remember, the first club I ever rode with, back in the late 1980s, used "oil up" and "oil down".

mattheus
Posts: 902
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mattheus » 5 Dec 2019, 1:39pm

landsurfer wrote:Why is anyone leading rides ?
Are these rides for children ?
Why would any group of adult cyclists need a Leader ?

No, mainly for adults.
They don't need a leader. This is all a shared fantasy. I suggest you direct your time to something more constructive.


But Leaders ...... no, don't see how that works...



Don't worry, you can't know everything!

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 2911
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Dec 2019, 1:53pm

There was a suggestion that standardised calls could be incorporated into the Highway Code, for the sake of widespread recognition. This might work in time, but:
-Most people don't read the HC
-Whatever was standardised on would leave dozens of clubs and hundreds of riders having to change their ingrained habits
-There would be a feeling of resentment from those whose calls and signs were now deemed 'incorrect', particularly if there were a regional pattern
-Even where signals are incorporated into the HC, people continue to use them in other ways. For instance, flashing headlights to say 'you go first'.
-Variations would be likely to develop over time.
-The xkcd factor.

But the most serious result would be the inflexibility. Once a set of calls and signals are laid down officially, that official advice tends to be very slow to change, whereas the need for new or different signals can be brought about by changes in road conditions, technologies and as a byproduct of other laws.

Having said that, there is a also a need for some signals, and perhaps even some calls, to be understandable to other people. As an example, on one occasion I (alone) caught up with a slower group on a converted railway. I was just about to overtake them when their leader raised her right arm in the air at about 45 degrees. I thought this meant they were going to pull over on the right, so cancelled my overtake - there had been no rear observations from the leader or the group and there was no particularly obvious place to pull into, but that's not so unusual - but no, they all stopped on the left! I asked the leader about her signal and she said, 'Oh yes that's our stopping signal.' Great, use any group signal you want but think about how it might be understood by others.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17384
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Vorpal » 5 Dec 2019, 3:00pm

landsurfer wrote:Why is anyone leading rides ?
Are these rides for children ?
Why would any group of adult cyclists need a Leader ?
What do they do ...?

This is genuinely baffling, i ride in groups all the time .... but no one is the leader .... The faster ones tend to be in front, they get to T junctions first to allow them to argue over the route, the slower ones catch up and tell the squabblers which direction to go ...
Pretty normal for cyclists.

But Leaders ...... no, don't see how that works...

Rides for beginning or returning cyclists, Bikeability trainees, or any other folks who don't feel confident selecting a route and riding somewhere. My former club occasionally had beginner or family rides which were relatively short, easy paced rides, that included children, beginners, and anyone else who couldn't manage the club run. They normally had a leader & tailperson, simply because there were inexperienced cyclists who might struggle, or be uncertain what do in some circumstances.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom