Accreditation experience

For discussions within the Cycle Training profession.
User avatar
Si
Moderator
Posts: 14955
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:37pm

Accreditation experience

Postby Si » 22 Apr 2016, 4:04pm

A question for you NSIQs out there - how many hours of delivery experience do you think that the average NSIP needs (roughly speaking) before doing their accreditation and being let loose to instruct solo?

User avatar
Lance Dopestrong
Posts: 661
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 1:52pm

Re: Accreditation experience

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 23 Apr 2016, 4:41pm

You should never teach solo. You should have a safety officer assisting you.
Self employed MIAS L5.B Instructor.
Warwickshire Lowland Rescue Bike lead.
IPMBA member.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 15683
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Accreditation experience

Postby Vorpal » 23 Apr 2016, 5:14pm

Well, it somewhat depends on the NSIP. I've met instructors I don't think should ever be let loose alone :shock: And others that I would have trusted immediately after taking their instructor course. I think I had been teaching Bikeability for almost 6 months before someone came round to observe & certify me. I might have taught 20 level 1 & 2 courses with various other instructors at that point.

I think that most people probably need to teach at least three level 1 & 2 courses so maybe a minimum of 20 hours?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

User avatar
Si
Moderator
Posts: 14955
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 7:37pm

Re: Accreditation experience

Postby Si » 23 Apr 2016, 5:55pm

Yes, that's my sort of thoughts. I'm just wondering if I'm being a little too over cautious about a scheme that is attempting to fast-track some instructors through. Two on the course are already cycling coaches so I can see them having few problems, but two more don't really ride that much!!

User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 3236
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Accreditation experience

Postby pjclinch » 25 Apr 2016, 8:27pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:You should never teach solo. You should have a safety officer assisting you.


To teach a dozen kids how to ride in control around a playground has no more need of an additional "safety officer" than a game of football in the same venue (in fact Australian figures from the 80s comparing hospital visits for a given exposure of various recreational activities had soccer as about an order of magnitude worse than cycling).

Thinking otherwise is just going down the avenue of "dangerising" cycling. Especially when one realises that most teaching of cycling has been done in entirely reasonable safety by unqualified parents!
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

User avatar
Lance Dopestrong
Posts: 661
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 1:52pm

Re: Accreditation experience

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 25 Apr 2016, 8:46pm

How do you keep an eye on a dozen kids? That is simply not possible to do effectively. I teach this stuff for a living and would never dream of a group bigger than 8, and 6 is my preference, and that's with relatively well behaved adults.

I would certainly never operate without a second as my safety officer - it gives me a second pair of eyes, which is great because there's no way in Hell I can watch 6 students intently, judge their performance and issue instructions, and in the event of an emergency I got a trained second pair of hands. You try calling an ambulance and giving CPR at the same time. All the professional level training bodies insist on it, as do our insurers.

Teaching cycling is easy. Parents have done it for generations. Mind you, they've been teaching g bad safety and roadcraft for generations . Teaching it to a dozen at a time is a different level entirely, and the problem is compounded when they're children. The safety issue is a minor one, your ability to watch so many simultaneously a major one. No wonder Bokeability (sic) is such a laughing stock. More so because I see the calibre of the Bokeability trainers who fancy moving onwards and upwards to become proper instructors.
Self employed MIAS L5.B Instructor.
Warwickshire Lowland Rescue Bike lead.
IPMBA member.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 15683
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Accreditation experience

Postby Vorpal » 25 Apr 2016, 10:04pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:How do you keep an eye on a dozen kids? That is simply not possible to do effectively. I teach this stuff for a living and would never dream of a group bigger than 8, and 6 is my preference, and that's with relatively well behaved adults.

I would certainly never operate without a second as my safety officer - it gives me a second pair of eyes, which is great because there's no way in Hell I can watch 6 students intently, judge their performance and issue instructions, and in the event of an emergency I got a trained second pair of hands. You try calling an ambulance and giving CPR at the same time. All the professional level training bodies insist on it, as do our insurers.

Teaching cycling is easy. Parents have done it for generations. Mind you, they've been teaching g bad safety and roadcraft for generations . Teaching it to a dozen at a time is a different level entirely, and the problem is compounded when they're children. The safety issue is a minor one, your ability to watch so many simultaneously a major one. No wonder Bokeability (sic) is such a laughing stock. More so because I see the calibre of the Bokeability trainers who fancy moving onwards and upwards to become proper instructors.


Level 2 on the road, is supposed to be a 6:1 ratio (trainees : instructors), so with 12, that's two NSIs; one can be an NSIA or NSIP.

On the playground, the maximum number of trainees per instructor is 15. That's for level 1 only, in the enclosed space of a school playground, where you can set them to riding a course, or playing simple games. Even that can be a bit much, especially with a group of year 6's or soemthing, but in that sort of circumstance, there is often a teacher or teaching assistant available to help. Also, they usually know their students and can judge whether they should be split into smaller groups, or another instructor is needed. I never taught so many at once, myself. I normally did level 1 and 2 with around 10 trainees and two NSIQ instructors. Level 3, I only ever taught 1:1. And complete begineners, I only ever taught 1:1.

p.s. insulting the people who make a living as Bikeability instructors isn't going to win you any arguments about what they do wrong.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 3236
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Accreditation experience

Postby pjclinch » 26 Apr 2016, 9:11am

Lance Dopestrong wrote:How do you keep an eye on a dozen kids? That is simply not possible to do effectively. I teach this stuff for a living and would never dream of a group bigger than 8, and 6 is my preference, and that's with relatively well behaved adults.


So you've never been in a teaching situation in your life when a single teacher kept their eye on a dozen kids? You might want to propose it's impossible at the next NUT conference, but do take earplugs for the laughter you'll get.

You don't appear to have too much grasp of what it is you're actually criticising (not for the first time, either). It's not bespoke professional training, isn't trying to be, and would be little use if it was.

You say groups should never be over 8, so that'll 3-4 sessions with 2 instructors for a single primary class to get through a lesson. Where are you going to find the time in a school timetable for that, and where are you going to find a school with the pockets to pay for it?

The basics of bike handling to enable one to pedal for short values of motor traffic free A to B (Bikeability L1 in other words) does not require bespoke professional training. Anyone suggesting it does is trying to mystify riding a bike and/or confusing "optimal" with "adequate" (I was chatting to an experienced track coach starting to do Bikeability recently, he was bemoaning how it was impossible to do much with a saddle at the wrong height and I pointed out that was about 90%+ of all kids on BMXs, yet they get about. He conceded the point, realising it's not all marginal-gains everything must be as good as possible).

When you get to L3 it's a 6:2 instructor ratio in Scotland (just as you'd like), because in Proper Traffic it's just not tenable to do it with a big group and low instructor ratio. But there's more to "Bikeability" than L3. Tellingly, very little L3 is taught, not because it's a bad thing but because it's very hungry for resources that aren't easily available.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...