Leading rides on busy roads.

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PH
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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby PH » 5 Dec 2019, 3:36pm

landsurfer wrote:Why is anyone leading rides ?
Are these rides for children ?
Why would any group of adult cyclists need a Leader ?
What do they do ...?

This is genuinely baffling, i ride in groups all the time .... but no one is the leader .... The faster ones tend to be in front, they get to T junctions first to allow them to argue over the route, the slower ones catch up and tell the squabblers which direction to go ...
Pretty normal for cyclists.

But Leaders ...... no, don't see how that works...

A well led ride won't have riders stopping and waiting at T junctions, I see groups doing it all the time, often foolishly spread out all over the road. Neither will such a ride have any need for arguments and squabbling, but if that's the sort of thing that makes riders happy, there's plenty of groups to cater for them.
In a CTC sense, leading is a lot more than what goes on while out on the road, the T is for Touring and even on a day ride the what and the where is an important part of it. If you're lucky the leader will have come up with something more than a ride down familiar roads to the usual cafe.

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mjr
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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mjr » 5 Dec 2019, 5:08pm

PH wrote:In a CTC sense, leading is a lot more than what goes on while out on the road, the T is for Touring and even on a day ride the what and the where is an important part of it. If you're lucky the leader will have come up with something more than a ride down familiar roads to the usual cafe.

I think you'd be very lucky indeed! CTC didn't get known as "Cafe To Cafe" without good reason. The local CTC now keep their rides secret, but over in Norwich, the current rides list all look like cafes at a glance https://norwichctc.com/home/rides-list-2/

And I don't blame them because surely CTC ride leaders obeying the handbook have enough to do without handling the extra likes of Christmas Lights Rides or arranging visits to things? Leave that to the informal rides... interestingly, Norwich CTC list a meet-up at a local narrow guage line but as "make your own way" but I would bet on people meeting at the usual time and place to ride there together - is that how stealth informal rides happen now? ;)
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby PH » 5 Dec 2019, 7:09pm

mjr wrote:I think you'd be very lucky indeed!

I frequently am, or maybe it's you that's unlucky.
I've ridden with a few MG's and been lucky with them all.
And I don't blame them because surely CTC ride leaders obeying the handbook

I don't know why you persist with this nonsense, the guidance is simple to follow and takes little time or effort.

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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mjr » 5 Dec 2019, 9:12pm

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:I think you'd be very lucky indeed!

I frequently am, or maybe it's you that's unlucky.
I've ridden with a few MG's and been lucky with them all.

If you knew that many MGs doing more, you would offer links showing loads of non-cafe-to-cafe rides this month or next.

And I don't blame them because surely CTC ride leaders obeying the handbook

I don't know why you persist with this nonsense, the guidance is simple to follow and takes little time or effort.

And I don't know why you persist with this when it's clear that we have differing opinions on doing all the work behind completing all those forms every ride taking "little time or effort".
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby PH » 5 Dec 2019, 9:44pm

mjr wrote:
PH wrote:
mjr wrote:I think you'd be very lucky indeed!

I frequently am, or maybe it's you that's unlucky.
I've ridden with a few MG's and been lucky with them all.

If you knew that many MGs doing more, you would offer links showing loads of non-cafe-to-cafe rides this month or next.

And I don't blame them because surely CTC ride leaders obeying the handbook

I don't know why you persist with this nonsense, the guidance is simple to follow and takes little time or effort.

And I don't know why you persist with this when it's clear that we have differing opinions on doing all the work behind completing all those forms every ride taking "little time or effort".


All those forms? What are you on about?
What is your experience, did you learn nothing from the ride leaders workshops? How do you lead CTC rides?

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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mjr » 6 Dec 2019, 12:13am

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:If you knew that many MGs doing more, you would offer links showing loads of non-cafe-to-cafe rides this month or next.
[...]
And I don't know why you persist with this when it's clear that we have differing opinions on doing all the work behind completing all those forms every ride taking "little time or effort".


All those forms? What are you on about?
What is your experience, did you learn nothing from the ride leaders workshops? How do you lead CTC rides?


https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?p=1410905#p1410905

Now, where's some evidence of all those Member Group non-cafe rides?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby PH » 6 Dec 2019, 1:18am

mjr wrote:Now, where's some evidence of all those Member Group non-cafe rides?

Where do I say that? Really I know you struggle to understand, but now you seem unable to read, here's what I said
If you're lucky the leader will have come up with something more than a ride down familiar roads to the usual cafe.

So you show me where I said the rides don't involve a cafe, got it? Understand that? More than a ride down familiar roads to the usual cafe. Anyone else think that means they don't go to any cafes? Anyone else think that more than means exclude? Anyone else think all cafes are the usual cafe?

I ask what your experience is and you point to another thread. Do you have any experience outside of the internet?

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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mjr » 6 Dec 2019, 9:50am

PH wrote:
mjr wrote:Now, where's some evidence of all those Member Group non-cafe rides?

Where do I say that? Really I know you struggle to understand, but now you seem unable to read, here's what I said
If you're lucky the leader will have come up with something more than a ride down familiar roads to the usual cafe.

So you show me where I said the rides don't involve a cafe, got it? Understand that? More than a ride down familiar roads to the usual cafe. Anyone else think that means they don't go to any cafes? Anyone else think that more than means exclude? Anyone else think all cafes are the usual cafe?

Anyone think it was unclear at all what I meant? Anyone not notice that PH offers no evidence of rides that are more than cafe-to-cafe?

I ask what your experience is and you point to another thread. Do you have any experience outside of the internet?

Yes. The pointer is because I see little point repeating previous topics of misinterpretations and evasions. If you want to continue it, let's not restart from zero and answer the questions asked last time.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mattheus » 6 Dec 2019, 9:54am

Why on earth are folks arguing about whether rides go to cafes?? Some group rides don't go to cafes, most of the longer ones do. I can't see there are any legal/liability issues either way. Who cares??

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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby mjr » 6 Dec 2019, 11:46am

mattheus wrote:Why on earth are folks arguing about whether rides go to cafes?? Some group rides don't go to cafes, most of the longer ones do. I can't see there are any legal/liability issues either way. Who cares??

Yeah, sorry, that all arose from the claim that leading "in a CTC sense" is about loads more than handling riding on typical roads and then simply asking for examples vanished down a rabbit-hole of deflections and innuendo.
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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 6 Dec 2019, 2:57pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:The reason “car up” and “car down” became the accepted norm, was that “car up” / “car down” gives 3 bits of info, with 2 words, and 2 syllables ( there’s a vehicle, it’s behind / in front, it’s moving towards the group, which is also why “car back” / “car front” shouldn’t be used, as ‘back’ and ‘front’ don’t carry the same inference about the vehicles relative motion) and the info is delivered as quickly as possible.

Regardless of what calls are used and whether or not they're standard, I'm still puzzling over why the vehicle's motion relative to the group needs to be imparted in a call. I can't work out why you need to know about a vehicle that's moving away from you. Could someone - anyone, doesn't have to be Marcus Aurelius - please explain? Thanks!

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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 6 Dec 2019, 3:16pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:The reason “car up” and “car down” became the accepted norm, was that “car up” / “car down” gives 3 bits of info, with 2 words, and 2 syllables ( there’s a vehicle, it’s behind / in front, it’s moving towards the group, which is also why “car back” / “car front” shouldn’t be used, as ‘back’ and ‘front’ don’t carry the same inference about the vehicles relative motion) and the info is delivered as quickly as possible.

Regardless of what calls are used and whether or not they're standard, I'm still puzzling over why the vehicle's motion relative to the group needs to be imparted in a call. I can't work out why you need to know about a vehicle that's moving away from you. Could someone - anyone, doesn't have to be Marcus Aurelius - please explain? Thanks!


It’s only a threat / risk when it’s moving towards the group. If it’s no threat / risk, there’s no need / point in the call. That’s another thing altogether ( people calling stuff that’s really no threat risk ).

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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 6 Dec 2019, 5:40pm

That's my thinking too. IME/O many people in CTC groups are too ready to call at the sight of a car when there's no action to be taken or need to know about it (and too rarely call for holes). Audax groups I reckon are better in both respects. Given that, I can't understand why you'd need to be informed of the car's relative motion. Either it's moving towards the group and there's a call, or it's not and there's none. Even in the many situations where people use up/down/back/front interchangeably, I've never heard anyone call for a vehicle heading away, so it can be assumed (perhaps the only thing that can be reliably assumed in the mix of calls) that a vehicle is heading towards the group.

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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 6 Dec 2019, 5:43pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:That's my thinking too. IME/O many people in CTC groups are too ready to call at the sight of a car when there's no action to be taken or need to know about it (and too rarely call for holes). Audax groups I reckon are better in both respects. Given that, I can't understand why you'd need to be informed of the car's relative motion. Either it's moving towards the group and there's a call, or it's not and there's none. Even in the many situations where people use up/down/back/front interchangeably, I've never heard anyone call for a vehicle heading away, so it can be assumed (perhaps the only thing that can be reliably assumed in the mix of calls) that a vehicle is heading towards the group.

The only time you’d call a car in front, not moving towards, is when it’s parked on a blind bend, in front ( it happens ). It’s good to know it’s there. That’s when the ‘car front’ call comes in, and why it’s not a good idea to confuse ‘car front’ with ‘car down’.

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Re: Leading rides on busy roads.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 6 Dec 2019, 6:13pm

"Car left" or right, as may be, is the one used for that round here. Or simply "on the left/right" (which I dislike as a call to others warning them that you're passing them, but is fine within a group IMO).