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Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 15 Sep 2019, 11:39am
by Syd
pjclinch wrote:[.......For example, the mechanical workshop fitters in my department (NHS Medical Physics/Clinical Engineering) have to be able to drive because we do a lot of contract work servicing community loan equipment for independent living. If one of our team needs to service a personal hoist in Brechin (30 miles away, indifferent bus service, no connected rail) then the reality of public transport and carrying the relevant equipment means they drive or the work can't be done. Unless you want us to spend lots of NHS money on taxis...

Pete.

I work within Medical Physics in NHS Lothian and, despite us providing an area service, cannot put the requirement for a driving license in the “essential “ column in the person spec as it is not a driving job. Instead be place is under “desirable” so gives us the opportunity to use it as a tie-breaker so to speak.

On occasion taxis are used and the contract prices paid are only marginally more expensive than mileage rates for using you own vehicle

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 15 Sep 2019, 3:28pm
by pjclinch
Syd wrote:I work within Medical Physics in NHS Lothian and, despite us providing an area service, cannot put the requirement for a driving license in the “essential “ column in the person spec as it is not a driving job. Instead be place is under “desirable” so gives us the opportunity to use it as a tie-breaker so to speak.

On occasion taxis are used and the contract prices paid are only marginally more expensive than mileage rates for using you own vehicle


It all depends on the job description though, and that will be determined by the particular nature of what's done and where.
I'm not saying it's always reasonable to expect a driver's license, but there are modes of work where it's sometimes going to be fair, however regrettable that may be in the Bigger Picture.

Pete.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 15 Sep 2019, 3:33pm
by Si
My longest commute as a bikeability instructor was to longbridge, the other side of the city, a 40mile return journey. I was OK doing this on the bike, but we had a number of instructors who are not that fit and so would have struggled (esp with a day of doing bikeability in the moddle). Although many instructors in many places of the country come from the ranks of "keen cyclists" we recruited people from the various communities in Birmingham so they were not "club cyclists", just used to do short urban rides. However because they were from the communities that we were trying to get riding they had the advantage over white, middle class, middle aged MAMILs when it came to engaging with those communities. When they wanted to work further afield they sometimes resorted to using cars to get there.

I guess it's a trade off - will this one car journey encourage a number of other people to use their cars less and their bikes more?

As to using bikeability instructors who aren't that fit or fast- I'm all for it as long as they can instruct properly. Trainees can often relate to them better, plus they don't teach L3 at 20mph - they do it at more human speeds where road craft rather than speed is what keeps you alive.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 2:20pm
by Bmblbzzz
mjr wrote:
pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:Yes, it was a barely-updated cycling proficiency which allowed tutors to still teach gutter-cycling, left foot on kerb when turning left and other bad habits, but was vague enough it was claimed to have passed a review by Stear Davis Gleave consultants.


What's your left foot on the curb when turning left theory? I've never heard of it and I did cycling proficiency. I don't recall being told to ride in the gutter either.

I don't remember how it was defended and I can't think of a good theory behind it.

I did cycling proficiency and was taught to ride on the edge of the gutter. I think cycling proficiency was too vague.

Official motorcycle training – test-passing style - used to teach that m/cyclists should generally right just to right of lane centre, but move left when turning left, whether major to minor or at a give way. They don't teach that now either.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 2:43pm
by Cyril Haearn
Why has that changed? What are they advised to do instead?

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 2:48pm
by mjr
Probably they're now taught to take/hold the lane through junctions, same as cyclists, to reduce the risk of SMIDSY shunts when a driver can see up the road and doesn't look to the side at all.

For the record, here are illustrations from NCC's "Cycling Courses" handbook, 2010 and 2015 editions:

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 2:56pm
by Cyril Haearn
Braver than me, I hop off and walk when I sense the morton behind getting closer and closer

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 3:04pm
by pete75
Bmblbzzz wrote:
mjr wrote:
pete75 wrote:
What's your left foot on the curb when turning left theory? I've never heard of it and I did cycling proficiency. I don't recall being told to ride in the gutter either.

I don't remember how it was defended and I can't think of a good theory behind it.

I did cycling proficiency and was taught to ride on the edge of the gutter. I think cycling proficiency was too vague.

Official motorcycle training – test-passing style - used to teach that m/cyclists should generally right just to right of lane centre, but move left when turning left, whether major to minor or at a give way. They don't teach that now either.


If you rode just to the right of lane centre you'd be on the wrong side of the road.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 5:30pm
by mjr
pete75 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Official motorcycle training – test-passing style - used to teach that m/cyclists should generally right just to right of lane centre, but move left when turning left, whether major to minor or at a give way. They don't teach that now either.


If you rode just to the right of lane centre you'd be on the wrong side of the road.

There speaks a rider of small byways! ;) I think we know what was meant.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 21 Oct 2019, 7:19pm
by Bmblbzzz
Cyril Haearn wrote:Why has that changed? What are they advised to do instead?

Much as mjr has posted, though I think it probably was and is never quite as far left in either case.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 22 Oct 2019, 8:43am
by pjclinch
m/cycles are a different game because they can generally keep up with the other traffic all the time. The point of not taking the lane on a bike is to make you easier to pass when chugging along between junctions.

But pretty much standard for bikes is primary in to and through junctions. That NCC diagram is shocking, and aside from the terrible position it illustrates a common problem of diagrams for position which is the scale is preposterous. There just aren't any good reasons I can think of for the proliferation of diagrams where the relative scales of bikes, cars, trucks and roads are widely variant.

Another issue, possibly the case here, is diagrams are hard to revise in a consistent style so there is a tendency of "we've got a diagram and we're going to use it!" This has plagued the Scottish resources for years and one of the really good things about the NSCT revision is there's finally no excuse not to throw them in the bin and start again.

Pete.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 22 Oct 2019, 10:07am
by profpointy
I think that having driving experience would undoubtedly be a considerable help in being able to teach good cycling practice. Without personal experience of real driving trying to explain putting yourself in the motorists' mind set is going to be a challenge if based purely on theory.

That said, there's also a lot to be said for making potential drivers pass a "cycling proficiency test" or similar before getting their L plates

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 22 Oct 2019, 1:08pm
by pjclinch
profpointy wrote:I think that having driving experience would undoubtedly be a considerable help in being able to teach good cycling practice. Without personal experience of real driving trying to explain putting yourself in the motorists' mind set is going to be a challenge if based purely on theory.


Absolutely. One aspect of this is that when teaching adults you can often ask, "how would you do that if you were driving?", and they tell you, and in quite a lot of cases (notably so with roundabouts) you can reply "that's pretty much what to do on the bike". That doesn't work with kids!

Coincidentally, the issues with teaching road position in Bikeability have just caused Cycling Scotland to ask me to join in a review of how we might make it clearer in classes for children. One of those things that turns out to be quite a can of worms, especially if you can't assume much about what someone knows about how the road works beyond which side of it to use.

profpointy wrote:That said, there's also a lot to be said for making potential drivers pass a "cycling proficiency test" or similar before getting their L plates


Yup.

Pete.