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May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 2 Sep 2019, 2:29pm
by mjr
"Due to the nature of the job , you must be able to drive." says https://www.activenorfolk.org/jobs/5916/ (Bikeability Instructors)

Is that fair? Appropriate? Allowed by Bikeability?

It's a step forwards if more schools are going to teach Bikeability instead of the old system, but if all instructors are motorists, I hope it's being monitored very closely so the bad old get-out-of-the-way ways (left foot on the kerb/verge when turning left, and so on) don't continue or creep back in.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 2 Sep 2019, 2:33pm
by Mike Sales
mjr wrote:"Due to the nature of the job , you must be able to drive." says https://www.activenorfolk.org/jobs/5916/ (Bikeability Instructors)

Is that fair? Appropriate? Allowed by Bikeability?

It's a step forwards if more schools are going to teach Bikeability instead of the old system, but if all instructors are motorists, I hope it's being monitored very closely so the bad old get-out-of-the-way ways (left foot on the kerb/verge when turning left, and so on) don't continue or creep back in.


That is terrible. It would make more sense if drivers were not allowed to teach Bikeability.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 2 Sep 2019, 6:56pm
by Spinners
Seems more of an issue to do with the distance (and, of course, time) to the various locations. The job pays car mileage or bike mileage which seems to acknowledge that if the location is close enough you can use your bicycle but other locations will be too far.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 2 Sep 2019, 9:14pm
by pjclinch
mjr wrote:"Due to the nature of the job , you must be able to drive." says https://www.activenorfolk.org/jobs/5916/ (Bikeability Instructors)

Is that fair? Appropriate? Allowed by Bikeability?


It's not quite that simple, because there's more to a job than what you do on the job. For example, the mechanical workshop fitters in my department (NHS Medical Physics/Clinical Engineering) have to be able to drive because we do a lot of contract work servicing community loan equipment for independent living. If one of our team needs to service a personal hoist in Brechin (30 miles away, indifferent bus service, no connected rail) then the reality of public transport and carrying the relevant equipment means they drive or the work can't be done. Unless you want us to spend lots of NHS money on taxis...

"Bikeability" wouldn't be your employer. It would be some independent delivery agency, either directly employing or contracting. As an independent contractor you can call the tune, but I'd guess (at least around here) you'd miss a lot of gigs if you didn't drive. Every time I've taken a course with Cycling Scotland Tutors (top level of instructors) they've arrived from their various bits of Scotland by car with their bikes on board, and a good chunk of the ones outside Dundee I've driven to because it saved me hours and money compared to public transport.

Beyond that, while teaching National Standards doesn't require you to be able to drive it probably helps, just as being a cyclist is probably helpful to being a driving instructor. Cycling Scotland's "Essential Skills", which is a sort of Bikeability-in-a-day for adults brushing up, it is really helpful to be a driver because most of the clients are drivers and it's much easier to relate what you're saying to their experience as drivers. For example, explaining how to deal with a multi-lane roundabout, which in terms of where to go more or less boils down to "just how you'd do it in a car".

mjr wrote:It's a step forwards if more schools are going to teach Bikeability instead of the old system, but if all instructors are motorists, I hope it's being monitored very closely so the bad old get-out-of-the-way ways (left foot on the kerb/verge when turning left, and so on) don't continue or creep back in.


Monitoring is down to the delivery agencies or those that contract them. Cycling Scotland has a QA/monitoring programme with additional help and mentoring for new trainers as well as reviews for those who've been working at it longer, and CPD courses. That's all Good Stuff, but I don't know if Randomshire County Council or Borough of Somewhere would be doing anything like that.

Pete.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 9:46am
by pete75
mjr wrote:"Due to the nature of the job , you must be able to drive." says https://www.activenorfolk.org/jobs/5916/ (Bikeability Instructors)

Is that fair? Appropriate? Allowed by Bikeability?

It's a step forwards if more schools are going to teach Bikeability instead of the old system, but if all instructors are motorists, I hope it's being monitored very closely so the bad old get-out-of-the-way ways (left foot on the kerb/verge when turning left, and so on) don't continue or creep back in.


What's the old system - Cycling Proficiency? The police used to teach us that. If that's being dropped in favour of Bikeability why don't the police do that too?

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 11:05am
by pjclinch
pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:"Due to the nature of the job , you must be able to drive." says https://www.activenorfolk.org/jobs/5916/ (Bikeability Instructors)

Is that fair? Appropriate? Allowed by Bikeability?

It's a step forwards if more schools are going to teach Bikeability instead of the old system, but if all instructors are motorists, I hope it's being monitored very closely so the bad old get-out-of-the-way ways (left foot on the kerb/verge when turning left, and so on) don't continue or creep back in.


What's the old system - Cycling Proficiency? The police used to teach us that. If that's being dropped in favour of Bikeability why don't the police do that too?


Because it's not "core business", in the jargon of the day, or in other words it was seen as a buck that could be passed as police forces reorganised.

It's actually been the case that since the 70s local authorities have been responsible for delivery (or deciding not to bother) and police services would often deliver given the wider community involvement back then (i.e., "more bobbies on the beat". However, given that a widespread mindset of police Road Safety Officers developed to the tune of "the best way to minimise cycling casualties is to put people off cycling" it's probably just as well they stopped. Tayside Police were at least assessing Bikeability Scotland until about 2011. I was not impressed with what I saw with an RSO effectively looking for rote-learning demonstrations.

Pete.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 12:11pm
by mjr
pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:"Due to the nature of the job , you must be able to drive." says https://www.activenorfolk.org/jobs/5916/ (Bikeability Instructors)

Is that fair? Appropriate? Allowed by Bikeability?

It's a step forwards if more schools are going to teach Bikeability instead of the old system, but if all instructors are motorists, I hope it's being monitored very closely so the bad old get-out-of-the-way ways (left foot on the kerb/verge when turning left, and so on) don't continue or creep back in.


What's the old system - Cycling Proficiency? The police used to teach us that. If that's being dropped in favour of Bikeability why don't the police do that too?

Yes, it was a barely-updated cycling proficiency which allowed tutors to still teach gutter-cycling, left foot on kerb when turning left and other bad habits, but was vague enough it was claimed to have passed a review by Stear Davis Gleave consultants.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 12:39pm
by Richard Fairhurst
pjclinch wrote:It's actually been the case that since the 70s local authorities have been responsible for delivery (or deciding not to bother) and police services would often deliver given the wider community involvement back then (i.e., "more bobbies on the beat". However, given that a widespread mindset of police Road Safety Officers developed to the tune of "the best way to minimise cycling casualties is to put people off cycling" it's probably just as well they stopped. Tayside Police were at least assessing Bikeability Scotland until about 2011. I was not impressed with what I saw with an RSO effectively looking for rote-learning demonstrations.


Bizarrely, in Oxfordshire, it's the responsibility of the Fire & Rescue Service, who have their own cycle training scheme which isn't Bikeability. https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/resident ... e-training

There's been some external pressure to introduce Bikeability (which is generally agreed to be better than OCC's in-house programme) and that seems to be bearing fruit: both Windrush Bike Project and Outspoken Training are making inroads. WBP manage to serve the local rural area by bike - I've seen their instructors cycling from Witney to Charlbury School a few times! - which rather disproves the "due to the nature of the job" excuse cited in mjr's original post. And we have more hills round here. ;)

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 2:11pm
by Vorpal
mjr wrote:"Due to the nature of the job , you must be able to drive." says https://www.activenorfolk.org/jobs/5916/ (Bikeability Instructors)

Is that fair? Appropriate? Allowed by Bikeability?

It's a step forwards if more schools are going to teach Bikeability instead of the old system, but if all instructors are motorists, I hope it's being monitored very closely so the bad old get-out-of-the-way ways (left foot on the kerb/verge when turning left, and so on) don't continue or creep back in.

Essex county council have no such rules, and when I was working there 2010 - 2012, they actively encouraged instructors to cycle by paying the same per mile rate (for anything over some distance from home; maybe it was 5 miles? 7 miles?) whether we drove or cycled.

I don't think it should be a requirement of the job, and I am not aware of any other organisations that require cycle instructors to hold a driving licence or be able to drive. A couple of organisations say that a driving licence and access to a car is 'advantageous' due to working over a wide geographic area. I've also seen 'must have access to effective transport', which could just mean that if it's too far to reasonably cycle, instructors need to be able to get there by other means.

You could try contacting the Bikeability Trust?

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 4:27pm
by pete75
mjr wrote:
pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:"Due to the nature of the job , you must be able to drive." says https://www.activenorfolk.org/jobs/5916/ (Bikeability Instructors)

Is that fair? Appropriate? Allowed by Bikeability?

It's a step forwards if more schools are going to teach Bikeability instead of the old system, but if all instructors are motorists, I hope it's being monitored very closely so the bad old get-out-of-the-way ways (left foot on the kerb/verge when turning left, and so on) don't continue or creep back in.


What's the old system - Cycling Proficiency? The police used to teach us that. If that's being dropped in favour of Bikeability why don't the police do that too?

Yes, it was a barely-updated cycling proficiency which allowed tutors to still teach gutter-cycling, left foot on kerb when turning left and other bad habits, but was vague enough it was claimed to have passed a review by Stear Davis Gleave consultants.


What's your left foot on the curb when turning left theory? I've never heard of it and I did cycling proficiency. I don't recall being told to ride in the gutter either.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 8:09pm
by mjr
pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:Yes, it was a barely-updated cycling proficiency which allowed tutors to still teach gutter-cycling, left foot on kerb when turning left and other bad habits, but was vague enough it was claimed to have passed a review by Stear Davis Gleave consultants.


What's your left foot on the curb when turning left theory? I've never heard of it and I did cycling proficiency. I don't recall being told to ride in the gutter either.

I don't remember how it was defended and I can't think of a good theory behind it.

I did cycling proficiency and was taught to ride on the edge of the gutter. I think cycling proficiency was too vague.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 11:03pm
by pete75
mjr wrote:
pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:Yes, it was a barely-updated cycling proficiency which allowed tutors to still teach gutter-cycling, left foot on kerb when turning left and other bad habits, but was vague enough it was claimed to have passed a review by Stear Davis Gleave consultants.


What's your left foot on the curb when turning left theory? I've never heard of it and I did cycling proficiency. I don't recall being told to ride in the gutter either.

I don't remember how it was defended and I can't think of a good theory behind it.

I did cycling proficiency and was taught to ride on the edge of the gutter. I think cycling proficiency was too vague.


Most of the roads where I learnt to ride had neither gutter nor kerb. Come to think of it most roads have neither, only those in towns and large villages.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 11:42pm
by mjr
pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:
pete75 wrote:
What's your left foot on the curb when turning left theory? I've never heard of it and I did cycling proficiency. I don't recall being told to ride in the gutter either.

I don't remember how it was defended and I can't think of a good theory behind it.

I did cycling proficiency and was taught to ride on the edge of the gutter. I think cycling proficiency was too vague.


Most of the roads where I learnt to ride had neither gutter nor kerb. Come to think of it most roads have neither, only those in towns and large villages.

I think you know what I meant. Teaching kids to ride a foot from the edge. And kerbs are much more widespread than that - even the small village with a school south of here (pop 350ish) has kerbs near its school. (My village and the next one south have no school.)

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 14 Sep 2019, 2:09am
by pete75
mjr wrote:
pete75 wrote:
mjr wrote:I don't remember how it was defended and I can't think of a good theory behind it.

I did cycling proficiency and was taught to ride on the edge of the gutter. I think cycling proficiency was too vague.


Most of the roads where I learnt to ride had neither gutter nor kerb. Come to think of it most roads have neither, only those in towns and large villages.

I think you know what I meant. Teaching kids to ride a foot from the edge. And kerbs are much more widespread than that - even the small village with a school south of here (pop 350ish) has kerbs near its school. (My village and the next one south have no school.)


I wouldn't call a village with 350 population small. You usually only find kerbs where there are pavements. The vast bulk of our road network doesn't have pavements alongside it.

Re: May only motorists teach Bikeability?

Posted: 14 Sep 2019, 4:16pm
by pjclinch
Back to the driving thing, it would depend on the particular circumstances. Back when I was teaching it was for the three authorities making up Tayside, so that's Dundee, Angus and Perth & Kinross. Look at P&K on the map (and note how little of it is on a railway line) and you see a potential problem: it's huge! Argyll & Bute and Highland even more problematical.

Of course, these are exceptional in a UK perspective: I'm just saying it's not necessarily outrageous or unreasonable.

There are other possible issues: if a delivery company expects to turn up at a school with a trailer-full of bikes there aren't that many places it would be tenable in the UK at the moment. And so on.

Pete.