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Re: Primary and secondary position: reasoning?

Posted: 23 Oct 2019, 2:07pm
by pjclinch
mjr wrote:
pjclinch wrote:https://goo.gl/maps/eUELCeZxxJqKsB7F9

If you're coming towards the camera Primary is right in the middle of the lane, simples... but going in the direction of the shot pretty much every car coming that way goes over the marked centre line (there are always cars parked there). So where is the centre of of the lane? Is that the marked lane (well, no, I'd say, and that would be int he Door Zone anyway), or the effective lane as used? And, hang on... if that means the real lane as used by most traffic is off to the right of the line, does that affect the "centre of the lane" in the direction towards the camera?

Centre of the effective lane - I think Franklin is quite clear about this but I don't have time to type it out right now - and yes, it affects the direction towards the camera.


Indeed. The point I'm making is if Two Random Cyclists go and point to those spots on the road, they may not be the same spots. The Nice Thing about Primary is it's notionally a pretty sharp place, but it's actually a bit fuzzier in practice. (Also the case that it's not so much the Middle Of The (Effective) Lane, as the Mot(E)L +/- a bit of wiggle room. How much wiggle room? "it depends...")

Re: Primary and secondary position: reasoning?

Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 7:41pm
by Bmblbzzz
Thinking about your example above, I'd say what changes between positions is not the concept of primary but the interpretation of available lane. It doesn't have to be synonymous with the marked lane.

FWIW if I were riding toward the camera in that situation and there were a stream of traffic coming toward me, I would be further to the left in order to pass them without dodging left and right. But if it were quiet, I'd be further out, possibly in line with an oncoming driver's r/h wheel (or possibly even their head), in order to slow them down before meeting. Of course whether this works depends on various factors psychological and social. And I haven't yet considered whatever traffic might be behind me. So it depends on quite a few things...

Re: Primary and secondary position: reasoning?

Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 10:05pm
by pjclinch
I agree with all you say there.

Another factor is what the oncoming traffic is, so if it's an HGV or a bus the effective lane is wider than if it's an Austin 7, so Primary in the other direction will move accordingly.
These are things experience allows reasonably easy adjustment to, but teaching it to a class of 10 year olds is tricky!

Pete.

Re: Primary and secondary position: reasoning?

Posted: 26 Oct 2019, 9:06am
by passing the junction
Helpful discussion, thanks. IMHO the idea of secondary and primary is really good at taking people's perceptions of cycling 'out of the gutter' so to speak. But when I read Cyclecraft there were variations and qualifications that aren't in the Bikeability Delivery Guide, which just has very short extract. So in the book for example (reflecting the a point made above) "You may also find it difficult to move to or maintain the primary riding position along narrow main roads where traffic is fast and continuous." Level 2 isn't really a course where trainees can fully understand and explore which position to take. The two other limitations I find at Level 2 are (as stated above) the roads can be so narrow that 'moving from secondary to primary' is hardly moving at all and that moving to primary before turning left into a side road is counter-intuitive and actually quite hard to reason.