Training Course length

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keepontriking
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Training Course length

Postby keepontriking » 9 Jul 2010, 10:22am

I'm staggered - totally staggered!

Today I was approached by a parent who had been quoted £27 per hour by an national provider for National Standard Bikeability Training, as her child had missed school training.
She had been told he must have a Certificate to be able to take a cycle to school.

The latter is all too common but what gobsmacked me was that the Provider had said that only one hour, maybe two was all that was required to achieve the required standard.

What assessment is being made on these companies?

Vorpal
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Re: Training Course length

Postby Vorpal » 16 Jul 2010, 12:53pm

If they are registered they have to meet the Bikeability criteria

http://www.bikeability.org.uk/professio ... istration/

There are plenty of instructors out there who aren't registered, though I don't believe they can provide Bikeability certificates. It might be possible to achieve level 1 (off-road) in one-on-one instruction with a cyclist who is already reasonably competent in a very short period of time. Do you know what certificate the child must supply?

I'd suggest your friend contact the County Council, and/or check the list of instructors on the CTC site http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4747

Talk to two or three other instructors/companies, and see what they say.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

xpc316e
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Re: Training Course length

Postby xpc316e » 16 Jul 2010, 1:43pm

I second Vorpal's comments, but what annoys me is the bit about having to have a certificate before the child can cycle to school. We ought not to putting obstacles in front of children wanting to ride.
Riding a Dahon Jetstream P9 folder, a Claud Butler Cape Wrath MTB, and the latest acquisition, an early 90s Vision R30 above seat steered recumbent.

keepontriking
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Re: Training Course length

Postby keepontriking » 16 Jul 2010, 9:51pm

xpc316e wrote:I second Vorpal's comments, but what annoys me is the bit about having to have a certificate before the child can cycle to school. We ought not to putting obstacles in front of children wanting to ride.


This is a listed leading Bikeability training company, but my question was who is checking on them.
Perhaps there should be independent spot checks on what training the trainees receive, a bit like how market research companies follow up on their contractors?

I fully agree that demands for children have a certificate have no place; which are usually also linked with having to wear a helmet.

Meanwhile who is checking on the uninsured/unlicensed parents driving children to school in rust buckets?
The schools don't seem to bother about them :roll:

Vorpal
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Re: Training Course length

Postby Vorpal » 18 Jul 2010, 5:38pm

The custodian body is the Cycle Standards Training Board http://www.dft.gov.uk/ctsb/ on which the CTC is represented.

Instructors must be certified. See http://www.bikeability.org.uk/professio ... ructor.php for how that process works. I don't think that the companies are regulated in any way, but they have to provide some documentary evidence to register their schemes. However, it is the instructor who is responsible for training and assessment, however much time a company or manager thinks it will take.

Of course, the instructor won't get anything like £27 per hour.

But your friend should talk to some other providers, not only for how long they think training will take, but also how much they will charge.

And, yes, it's silly that a child has to provide a certificate. Do the children who walk to school have to provide I-know-the-green-cross-code certificates?

Maybe your friend's child can ride almost to school, lock up the bike to a sign post, then walk the last little way?
:lol:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

daveprospects
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Re: Training Course length

Postby daveprospects » 19 Jul 2010, 2:32pm

As a company that has gone thorugh the Bikeability accreditation programme, I have some concerns that there is no oversight to providers who have gonethrough the process and then decide to run the scheme as they wish shorten training times for pupils and maximise throughput (and money).

Bikeability states:
Level 1 Course
This course consists of 3 hours tuition delivered in one or more sessions with a ratio of one instructor to 15 trainees or less. There should be two or more instructors present if possible and it is conducted off-road. Level 1 = 3 hours total

Level 2 Course
This course consists of five sessions with a maximum of 12 children (can be more depending on the local roads). There should be a maximum ratio of one instructor to six trainees. The first session should last at least two hours and include a cycle check and assessment of Level 1 skills in the playground; then four 90 minute sessions on local roads. Children should bring their own bike if possible and be able to ride it (ideally to Level 1). Level 1 & 2 = 8 hours

I have heard of companies fitting Level 1 & Level 2 into a single school day which is clearly impossible according to Bikeability.

Personally I would rather spend more time with students ensuring they are confident and earn slightly lower fee rate than have poorly trained cyclists on the road having not covered and experienced a multitude of situations under supervision.

David Howard, Prospects4Sport Cycling

keepontriking
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Re: Training Course length

Postby keepontriking » 19 Jul 2010, 9:02pm

daveprospects wrote:As a company that has gone thorugh the Bikeability accreditation programme, I have some concerns that there is no oversight to providers who have gonethrough the process and then decide to run the scheme as they wish shorten training times for pupils and maximise throughput (and money).


This is exactly what concerns me where such companies a simply pushing numbers through to meet the requirements of LA contracts.
Since I first posted here I have since seen the following from a parent:

"My son has just completed the Bikeability scheme at xxxxxxxxx.
I followed him cycling home from school on the day that he completed his training, and I watched him cut straight across 3 roads without stopping or looking, to my horror!!
....he clearly hasn't taken in everything he was taught and obviously isn't ready to cycle to his new senior school in September.
"

The training was by the same company that was offering single session L2 courses in order to meet a parents wish for the all-so-important 'certificate'.

It seems that standards of Bikeability training are not being adequately monitored.

Vorpal
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Re: Training Course length

Postby Vorpal » 20 Jul 2010, 3:26pm

I don't want the standards denigrated by companies or instructors taking shortcuts in the name of throughput. However, I don't believe that it is possible to take the example of a single child, or even a single Bikeability provider, and use that to say that that the standards of Bikeability are not being adequately monitored.

You could try sending an email to ctsbenquiries@sdgworld.net. They can provide you with the facts about registration and oversight. They may also have a formal process by which you can make a complaint or inform them of possible variations from the standard delivery. If they don't, they should. Failing any satisfaction from that, take it up with the CTC. The CTC is represented on the CTSB.

Good luck.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

keepontriking
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Re: Training Course length

Postby keepontriking » 20 Jul 2010, 10:56pm

Vorpal wrote:I don't want the standards denigrated by companies or instructors taking shortcuts in the name of throughput. However, I don't believe that it is possible to take the example of a single child, or even a single Bikeability provider, and use that to say that that the standards of Bikeability are not being adequately monitored.



Of course.
The question is "are they being monitored"
So far no response, and I suspect not.

xpc316e
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Re: Training Course length

Postby xpc316e » 26 Jul 2010, 11:42am

I work for a County Council, and we have engaged a number of commercial providers to deliver our Bikeability training. My boss suggested that we ought to monitor/audit the outside companies, and when we did we discovered a few examples of corners being drastically cut. One company was so bad that we immediately ceased all work with them, and other instructors were found to be doing things that were definitely different from what they had been taught on their courses. We will continue to monitor our providers. If you check out the webpages on South Gloucestershire's Bikeability, you'll find that they have deviated considerably from what is laid down. Sadly it seems as though people go on an instructors' course and then do exactly as they wish - so much for National Standards.
Riding a Dahon Jetstream P9 folder, a Claud Butler Cape Wrath MTB, and the latest acquisition, an early 90s Vision R30 above seat steered recumbent.

Fireweed
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Re: Training Course length

Postby Fireweed » 27 Jul 2010, 7:44pm

I have to disagree with your comment re: South Gloucestershire being off the charts with the National Standard. The training of instructors is thorough and monitored constantly. Some wiggle room is allowed regarding what and how to include the less important details, but the backbone of the course is the same for everyone- they make sure of it!

Do you mean the teaching differs from what is laid out on the Council website or the Bikeability website?

Bikecat
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Re: Training Course length

Postby Bikecat » 31 Aug 2010, 8:32pm

For all of youse out there I have just completed a level 2 course for an individual child, which did in fact take just under 2 hours. If our council hadn't been giving a discount at present, his parents would have had to pay £30 an hour, as any adult would.
Think about it: No time lost finding the kids, rounding them up and taking them and bringing them back to and from the area. No time lost locking and unlocking bikes or doing registers or getting 6 or 10 kids into hi viz vests.. I trained him 5 mins from home. He was very bright and answered all the questions very quickly and well. He did the drills and learned very quickly the principles and ideas so only needed a few goes. We even managed to do some riding on a fairly busy road and watch traffic at a mini roundabout.

Vorpal
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Re: Training Course length

Postby Vorpal » 2 Sep 2010, 10:11am

I don't doubt that it is possible.

But I would not tell a parent "only one hour" without knowing the child and/or his or her level of competence. If a parent I didn't know called me to ask how long to train a child that I didn't know, I'd give best and worst case scenarios. If I had information from someone whose opinion I trust (say a cycling club mate or another instructor) that a child was already reasonably competent, I would probably say 'an hour or two' for level 2. I have to admit I've never done one-on-one training, but I've certainly met some children for whom I would take more than just a couple of hours to train to level 2.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Bikecat
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Re: Training Course length

Postby Bikecat » 7 Sep 2010, 8:35am

Well yesterday I had a 13 yr old to teach and we managed to complete level 2 in one hour, again including riding on a busy road and having a go at a mini roundabout. I know that 13 year olds are easier to teach!
I can really recommend doing some one to ones, you can be more creative in your teaching, and not just stick to one or two junctions but also going on short rides around the area to test what they have learned.
We also teach adults from complete beginner to level 3.

adinigel
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Re: Training Course length

Postby adinigel » 18 Sep 2010, 3:34pm

Just to add, a school cannot prevent any child from cycling to school. They can, however, restrict who can take a bike on site but the cycling to school bit - they cannot put restrictions in place.

Level 2 Bikeability CANNOT be taught in 1 hour!

From the Bikeability Level 2 Manual...
• There must be at least 6 hours of on-road training for teaching Level 2


Whilst I don't doubt it could be possible to cover each of the outcomes for level 2 in one hour I do doubt that you would also have time to confirm that all the level 1 outcomes had been taken on board and for confirmation that the level 2 oucomes were understood and taken on board. Training I have been involved in tends to use the last session as a ride out which helps to show which of the pupils have understood and taken the learning on board - a good consolidation session.

Nigel
DSA registered Driving Instructor, RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Car Instruction, SAFED registered van trainer, National Standards Cycling Instructor