Instructor:pupil ratios

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ACyclist
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Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby ACyclist » 23 Jul 2015, 6:07pm

So, Bikeability says 1:6 for Level 2, would you agree to taking out a group of 8/9/10 children with one instructor and another unqualified adult, as someone I know has been asked to do? Apparently, they've been told the DfT say that's ok?? Seems a bit dodgy to me!

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Si
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Si » 23 Jul 2015, 7:28pm

Depends on what you mean by unqualified? If they have done the four day course but aren't accredited or have done the two day assistant course then, up to 10 <depending upon duration> would be OK (but not ideal). If, however, the other person is some random person dragged in off the street with no bikeability experience then you are on dodgy ground - I wouldn't do it. And if they aren't BDS cleared - even worse.

Being told that the dft says it is OK is a bit different to the dft saying it is OK and giving you something in writing - I would contact SD directly, they've always been helpful when I have.

However, with a small group I would be happy to do it if the other person was only there for child protection purposes and did not count towards the ratios. e.g. I would not take four kids out by myself, but would take them if there was another adult there (e.g. a parent or teacher) who was only there so that I would not be with the children by my self.

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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Vorpal » 23 Jul 2015, 7:50pm

I think the 1:6 is meant to be instructors or an instructor and qualified assistant. As Si says, if they've done the course , but haven't yet received full qualification, that's okay.

It's hard enough to manage 10 youngsters with a good working partner. Also, if something goes pear shaped, you can trust your partner to know what to do.

With someone you don't know and isn't qualified?

I don't think that I could teach effectively with that many kids to look after.

Also, if there are any problems between the students, it's all but impossible to keep on top of it (I have had some trouble-makers).

Lastly, what does the other person know about incident management? First aid? Will they have helped perform the risk assessment? Is the person a competent cyclist? Or do you have teach the helper, as well?

How did the 'DfT say that's okay'? Or did someone just look up the Instructor to student ratio and decide that meant adult to child ratio?
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ACyclist
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby ACyclist » 24 Jul 2015, 11:18am

Interestingly, anther fact that has emerged is that the LHA concerned are budgeting to spend more on "management" costs than on "staffing" costs - surely that can't be right??

ACyclist
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby ACyclist » 24 Jul 2015, 2:22pm

This matter has now been brought to the attention of SDG, so we'll see what happens! Thanks for your comments people :-)

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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 24 Jul 2015, 6:18pm

The stuff I do is a bit more involved than Bikeability. I'd prefer no more than 6, but would stretch to 8, butnI always train with a second to act as safety officer.
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pjclinch
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby pjclinch » 25 Jul 2015, 7:27am

The Bikeability Scotland (not quite the same thing as Bikeability, but still NS) L2 Trainer's Guide says:

Supervision Ratios
RoSPA recommend a ratio of 1:8 for on-road training to maximise learning with a minimum of two trainers present at all times to provide an adequate level of supervision. Trainers may exercise their own discretion depending on the group, as the level of supervision will vary depending on developmental stage and the learning outcomes to be achieved. Trainers should be aware of and adhere to local guidelines, on which your (school/ local authority) can advise. Whilst all training should be delivered by suitably qualified Cycle Training Assistants, larger groups can be made up by additional adults to observe and supervise. For example teachers, learning assistants and volunteers who should be trained to the level required by the local Bikeability centre.


In other words with a "recommend" in there you have a potential get-out which can make the difference between some training and no training. Which on the one hand is Good, because some will very probably be better than none, but on the other is Bad, because it puts you a bit between a rock and a hard place in deciding whether to deliver something inferior or push for decent resources. Which one is better is very much about context, so I'd say if you're the only adult with a Clue in a Highland village with a two-class school and very little traffic then okay, but in a fairly busy school in an urban area then probably not. My operations base is the latter, and since I wrote the latest revision of the risk assessment I quite specifically put in the two instructor minimum.

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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Vorpal » 25 Jul 2015, 9:23am

The Bikeability delivery manuals gives quite specific informaiton about this.

http://bikeability.org.uk/wp-content/up ... _Guide.pdf

Bikeability Delivery Guide wrote:All courses can be taught 1:1 with a
minimum of 2 hours per session. Many working practices do not allow single instructors to work alone with groups and therefore the ratios below may be multiplied to achieve the correct course size (e.g. 1:6 may be multiplied to 2:12)

For Level 1 and 2 courses the maximum ratio of assistant instructors to instructors is 2:1.The following guidelines regarding ratios and minimum durations of sessions are the expected delivery standards for courses. Any proposed variations which represent a departure from the guidelines must be approved by the Department for Transport before implementation.

<excerpted>Maximum number of trainees per instructor: 6


So, the guidelines in the delivery manuals are quite specific, though there are other places where the information is less clear, and it says things like 'students in groups of 3- 12' and that instruction will be delivered by '1 or 2 instructors or an instructor and assistant'.

If DfT has approved the circumstances described above, I would want to know how 'DfT say that's ok'. Is there something in writing? Are they going send someone along to help with the risk assessment?
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Si
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Si » 25 Jul 2015, 5:15pm

the problem with that passage is that you need to then find a definition of "assistant instructor"......like you I'm reading it as an NS trained instructor or an assistant who has does the to day course...but the person quoted in the OP it seems to be taken as someone who is assisting the instructor.

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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 25 Jul 2015, 6:53pm

Its easy as MIAS define the criteria for a Safety Officer = MIAS L2 or higher and a current 1st aid cert holder.
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Si
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Si » 25 Jul 2015, 8:54pm

MIAS has nothing to do with the NSs.

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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Vorpal » 25 Jul 2015, 8:57pm

Si wrote:the problem with that passage is that you need to then find a definition of "assistant instructor"......like you I'm reading it as an NS trained instructor or an assistant who has does the to day course...but the person quoted in the OP it seems to be taken as someone who is assisting the instructor.

It's defined here https://www.gov.uk/the-national-standar ... e-training
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 25 Jul 2015, 10:51pm

Si wrote:MIAS has nothing to do with the NSs.


No one said it did.
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Si
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Si » 26 Jul 2015, 12:25pm

Vorpal wrote:
Si wrote:the problem with that passage is that you need to then find a definition of "assistant instructor"......like you I'm reading it as an NS trained instructor or an assistant who has does the to day course...but the person quoted in the OP it seems to be taken as someone who is assisting the instructor.

It's defined here https://www.gov.uk/the-national-standar ... e-training


Yep, like I said, that's how I read it but by just using the word 'assistant' rather than being a little more specific it's understandable that someone might interpret it differently.

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Si
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Re: Instructor:pupil ratios

Postby Si » 26 Jul 2015, 12:27pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:
Si wrote:MIAS has nothing to do with the NSs.


No one said it did.



erm, so why mention it then? <searches for scratching head smiley>