Split from How can I stop this happening?

Anything about use of this forum : NOT about cycling
Post Reply
DevonDamo
Posts: 612
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by DevonDamo »

[moderator note: this post refers to viewtopic.php?p=1599529#p1599529 but was split off to avoid derailing the discussion about road position and overtaking]
Vorpal wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 4:20pmPlease argue nicely.
Could you explain what that would look like please?
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18989
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by Vorpal »

DevonDamo wrote:Could you explain what that would look like please?
Maybe?

Is
DevonDamo wrote: Now.... where... was... it....? I'm sure I read an account on here somewhere about someone pulling out into primary because they were in a location where an overtake was unsafe, and subsequently being put at risk by a dangerous overtake. But they weren't mown down though, which can't be right - because as you point out: that's the only possible way an overtake can occur in an unsafe location.

Hang on - I've got it! It was the OP. Have a look - it's a cracking read.
really necessary? It suggests that he hasn't read the OP, and borders on insulting. I'd be irritated if someone responded that way to me, and it is exactly the sort of thing that escalates into insults.

p.s. You may have slightly misunderstood Pete Owens. You and he seem to be saying exactly the same thing about the OP not being mown down, just coming at it from differing perspectives.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
DevonDamo
Posts: 612
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by DevonDamo »

Firstly - thanks to Vorpal for starting this separate thread. I'd requested we have this discussion on this forum rather than by PM because I wanted to discuss the moderation aspects rather than the original topic, and if I do stray into criticism, it seems more appropriate to do that on an open forum where I'm accountable for what I say.

As you can see from Vorpal's reposted PM above, and from the thread to which it refers, I've been criticised for my use of sarcasm in a discussion. Clearly, there's no disputing this - I was indeed being very sarcastic and just as Vorpal states above, that comment was indeed intended to imply that the person I was debating with hadn't read the original post.

I'm holding my hands up to the use of sarcasm. My view is that, whilst sarcasm is usually used in a negative way, it also represents a way to respond to a provocation with mockery rather than anger/abuse/etc. I also hold my hands up to being a thoroughly unpleasant individual, however the one common factor in the growing list of instances where Vorpal has moderated my content is that I've used sarcasm (or some other non-angry, non-threatening, non-sweary form of words) to respond to someone who has initiated an argument. And this has led me to question whether the use of sarcasm etc. should be on an unwritten list of 'forum politeness rules' on which Vorpal acts.

It's nice to be nice but moderating to the extent that posts are being deleted because of sarcasm or the 'tone' of what's being written is unique to this forum and actually has a negative effect. Rather than people being given the space to have their say and work out boundaries, and allow differences to grind to a halt, people are instead getting into a lazy routine of: 'post provocation'>'get response'>'call foul on that response'>'response deleted.' Forums are supposed to be democratic places - we've all got a keyboard - but once the moderation has crept beyond straightforward definable rules (no swearing, no threats, etc) to a subjective analysis of the tone or intent of posts, then that's become entirely subjective and biased based on the views of one person.

Essay over. My question: should the use of sarcasm be a matter for moderation?
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18989
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by Vorpal »

DevonDamo wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 1:49pm

Essay over. My question: should the use of sarcasm be a matter for moderation?
Sarcasm is not a matter for moderation in and of itself. Mockery might be.

However, I didn't moderate it. I merely posted an appeal to argue nicely, and would not normally have taken further action, as long as things didn't spiral into insults & personal attacks.

That said, I sometimes miss the mark. I have to admit that not having grown up in the UK, I sometimes place the line between sarcastic humour & negativity differently than some others. My main education in British wit was Monty Python's Flying Circus :wink:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
DevonDamo
Posts: 612
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by DevonDamo »

Appreciated - that was an honest response. If crossed wires are part of the issue here, then that would explain why I'm at the top of the 'whining about moderation' charts here. I use a lot of sarcasm, irony, comedy metaphors and all sorts of other dastardly ploys in disagreements and these would come across as confrontational if you don't perceive the comic intent behind them. Suggestion: how about treating me as a 'special case?' If I've written something that looks out of order - pass the job on to someone else to adjudicate. If nothing else, they can take the flack when I decide to throw my toys out of the pram.
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15183
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

DD you could add a signature/description, something like mine? :wink:

Perhaps moderators could 'sleep on' reports before dealing with them
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 17125
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by mjr »

DevonDamo wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 1:49pm As you can see from Vorpal's reposted PM above, and from the thread to which it refers, I've been criticised for my use of sarcasm in a discussion.
I think from Vorpal's message that the problem was not so much the use of sarcasm as the insulting suggestion that the other person had not read the opening post properly.

Maybe you should try reading that explanation properly?

(See, doesn't feel very nice, does it? ;) )
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
DevonDamo
Posts: 612
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by DevonDamo »

mjr wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 5:09pmI think from Vorpal's message that the problem was not so much the use of sarcasm as the insulting suggestion that the other person had not read the opening post properly.

Maybe you should try reading that explanation properly?

(See, doesn't feel very nice, does it? ;) )
That's absolutely right - it doesn't feel nice. However, my point wasn't that either sarcasm or suggesting someone hadn't read something were 'nice.' (I believe I may even have described myself as a 'thoroughly unpleasant individual' above, rather than a 'nice' individual.) My point was that moderating things because they don't feel 'nice' is unique to this forum and is doomed to failure when it comes to promoting harmony.

If someone popped up, uninvited, to tell you personally that they thought you were reckless for not having daytime lights, helmets, hi-viz and insurance, I suspect you'd rather wish you had the right to respond in something other than a 'nice' way. Maybe even a sarcastic rebuke like mine above about not reading the OP. This is what I'm arguing for - not a free-for-all swear/insult/threat-fest - but the right to respond proportionately rather than the current situation which is akin to being forced to fight with both hands tied behind your back.
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1337
Joined: 14 Dec 2006, 8:27pm
Location: Lancing, West Sussex
Contact:

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by admin »

DevonDamo wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 5:46pmthe current situation which is akin to being forced to fight with both hands tied behind your back.
If you feel like a message you're going to post to the Forum is part of a "fight", then I might suggest that it's better not to post it.

It is perfectly possible to disagree with someone else's opinion without needing to be abusive to them. Indeed, the more reasonable your comments, the more likely others will take your views seriously. Being abusive just puts peoples' backs up.

If you are looking for gritty arguments and "fights", there are many other online places you can go where moderators won't bother you.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 17125
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by mjr »

DevonDamo wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 5:46pm)My point was that moderating things because they don't feel 'nice' is unique to this forum and is doomed to failure when it comes to promoting harmony.
Far from unique to this fowl.

Not sufficient to ensure harmony but probably necessary for it.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18989
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by Vorpal »

Nobody has, to the best of my knowledge, moderated anything on the basis that it wasn't 'nice'. Things get moderated because of insults, and personal attacks, swearing, or other violations of forum guidelines.

I often post on threads when people post stuff that seems likely to degenerate into insults, when they are at the merely sarcastic / sniping stage in the hopes of heading it off before anything needs to be moderated.
DevonDamo wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 3:40pm Appreciated - that was an honest response. If crossed wires are part of the issue here, then that would explain why I'm at the top of the 'whining about moderation' charts here. I use a lot of sarcasm, irony, comedy metaphors and all sorts of other dastardly ploys in disagreements and these would come across as confrontational if you don't perceive the comic intent behind them. Suggestion: how about treating me as a 'special case?' If I've written something that looks out of order - pass the job on to someone else to adjudicate. If nothing else, they can take the flack when I decide to throw my toys out of the pram.
I don't think that you have been moderated very much, so I'm not sure that any such thing is necessary?

The others could vouch for the fact that if I'm not certain about something I do generally ask for a second opinion.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
drossall
Posts: 5210
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by drossall »

I'm a neutral here. For me, two things were going on in the thread. One was a potentially-useful debate about use of road positioning. The other was a private battle about who had read whose message and understood what from it. I kind of zoned out of that bit and haven't really figured out what's going on. Please don't try to explain, as I don't really need to know.

But road positioning is important, so removing the battle to another thread works for me, sorry. I'll probably unsubscribe from this thread shortly.
DevonDamo
Posts: 612
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Re: Split from How can I stop this happening?

Post by DevonDamo »

admin wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 5:54pm
DevonDamo wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 5:46pmthe current situation which is akin to being forced to fight with both hands tied behind your back.
If you feel like a message you're going to post to the Forum is part of a "fight", then I might suggest that it's better not to post it.

It is perfectly possible to disagree with someone else's opinion without needing to be abusive to them. Indeed, the more reasonable your comments, the more likely others will take your views seriously. Being abusive just puts peoples' backs up.
Type "fighting with both arms tied behind your back" into a Google search. You'll get 3 pages of results, all of which refer to facing a challenge such as contract law, weight loss, medical research etc. None of them refer to abuse, antagonism or aggression. It's just a metaphor for facing a challenge whilst hopelessly handicapped - a variation on the more common "fighting 'with one hand/arm tied behind your back" which will bring up countless pages of results, all of which also refer to a challenge rather than abuse. I've been up-front about my use of sarcasm, but I've never said I'd be abusive because that's not part of my repertoire and you've got no justification for implying that it is.
admin wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 5:54pmIf you are looking for gritty arguments and "fights",..
Please quote the post where I've said the above, or similar. If you can't find such a quote, please explain why you would say it.
Post Reply