Quote Depth?

Anything about use of this forum : NOT about cycling

My preferred default quote depth would be...

1 (just what you're replying to - mjr's suggestion)
7
54%
2 (what you're replying to and what it was replying to)
0
No votes
3 (current behaviour)
4
31%
unlimited
2
15%
 
Total votes: 13

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mjr
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Quote Depth?

Postby mjr » 17 Apr 2018, 1:10pm

Does anyone really need or even want quoting to be three deep? It's tedious cutting all the stuff inserted by quoting and so many replies quickly become so-called "canoes". As well as wasting everyone's time in most cases, it must be wasting database resources processing it all.

Would it be better if the quote button only automatically inserted the actual reply you click the " button on? You could add more in the editor if needed.

Changing it looks like going:
admin panel
posting tab
post settings
Maximum nesting depth for quotes:
Maximum quote nesting depth in a post. Set to 0 for unlimited depth.
Set it to 1
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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AlaninWales
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby AlaninWales » 17 Apr 2018, 1:45pm

mjr wrote:Does anyone really need or even want quoting to be three deep? It's tedious cutting all the stuff inserted by quoting and so many replies quickly become so-called "canoes". As well as wasting everyone's time in most cases, it must be wasting database resources processing it all.

Would it be better if the quote button only automatically inserted the actual reply you click the " button on? You could add more in the editor if needed.

Changing it looks like going:
admin panel
posting tab
post settings
Maximum nesting depth for quotes:
Maximum quote nesting depth in a post. Set to 0 for unlimited depth.
Set it to 1

As it's "maximum", that probably prevents anyone adding the depth back in via the editor.

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Mick F
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby Mick F » 17 Apr 2018, 3:28pm

I quote what I want.
Edit the quotes as you type.
You can quote whoever you want, and make it all up.
Mrs Thatcher wrote:I made a mistake, I shouldn't have got rid of all those lovely council houses.


You don't have that option on the poll.
Mick F. Cornwall

thirdcrank
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby thirdcrank » 17 Apr 2018, 4:26pm

Is there an example of a thread where this has been a problem? If so, a link would enable anybody who's interested to know what prompted this. :? Any new rule is going to mean more work for somebody, either the mods enforcing it or admin making it technically impossible. (Edit: as far as II can see, the suggestion offered would not stop somebody manually formatting any number of depths of quote.)

One problem with a lot of quotes within quotes is that the formatting can go astray so that the wrong poster is attributed and so on. That just needs more care on the part of posters to preview a complicated post.

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mjr
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby mjr » 17 Apr 2018, 6:10pm

Catching up on viewtopic.php?f=15&t=117685 maybe slightly was the final straw but more generally I've been thinking about why replying on this forum seems clunkier than on others I frequent. I've been intending to suggest this setting change for a while.

It's not a new rule. The only extra work is the settings change. Just to change the default.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 17 Apr 2018, 6:18pm

What other fora do you frequent?

I just don't bother reading many of the long posts, some of the arguments could better be conducted by pm

It is best to write short simple texts just making one point at a time, I think I am very very good at this*

Often I cut my text down to avoid boring others

* alternative facts welcome :wink:
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gaz
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby gaz » 17 Apr 2018, 7:07pm

mjr wrote:It's not a new rule. The only extra work is the settings change. Just to change the default.

Current limit is three. Anything above three falls victim to the Holy Hand Grenade :wink: .
There'll be tarmac over, the white cliffs of Dover ...

AlaninWales
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby AlaninWales » 18 Apr 2018, 9:36am

me wrote:
me wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:Is there an example of a thread where this has been a problem? If so, a link would enable anybody who's interested to know what prompted this. :? Any new rule is going to mean more work for somebody, either the mods enforcing it or admin making it technically impossible. (Edit: as far as II can see, the suggestion offered would not stop somebody manually formatting any number of depths of quote.)

One problem with a lot of quotes within quotes is that the formatting can go astray so that the wrong poster is attributed and so on. That just needs more care on the part of posters to preview a complicated post.


This is incorrect. With the current depth of 3, an attempt to add a fourth level of depth to the above results in:-
me wrote:
me wrote:
me wrote:


What mjr is suggesting does not just change the default, it changes the maximum limit and prevents any more than a single level of quote.

thirdcrank
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Apr 2018, 10:24am

AlaninWales wrote: ... What mjr is suggesting does not just change the default, it changes the maximum limit and prevents any more than a single level of quote.


Thanks. FWIW, I'd picked that up from gaz's immediately preceding post. :oops:

Incidentally, I'm still in the dark about caused this to be raised. :?

Long posts have been mentioned and I'll raise my hand there. What about a post limit of, say, fifty characters? No words of more than two syllables?

On the wider subject of quoting, it seems pointless to me to quote in full an entire post to discuss one bit. I presume the people who do it have their own good reasons and I suppose there's always a risk of commenting on a post which is then edited without a record of what was originally posted but so what?

This reminds me a bit of the introduction of the photo-copier. Once upon a time, people had to rely on the good old spirit duplicator. For a couple of years in the mid-1980's I worked at police headquarters in Wakefield mainly dealing with policy. Some of it involved looking back at earlier policy files to check why things were done as they were. Before the introduction of widespread photocopying, a policy decision would have been a short, handwritten note from the chief constable with brief reasons for his new instruction. By the time I was moved there, every new decision involved a typed report (remember typewriters? :lol: ) from an underling like me and photocopies of every previous vaguely connected decision so in no time at all, a new policy proposal involved a very thick dossier of not very much, but using plenty of A4 paper. (Probably not relevant but an excuse for a long thread. :wink: )

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mjr
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby mjr » 18 Apr 2018, 11:08am

AlaninWales wrote:What mjr is suggesting does not just change the default, it changes the maximum limit and prevents any more than a single level of quote.

I think that's incorrect. I'm fairly sure it changes the default. Line 1614 of https://github.com/phpbb/phpbb/blob/mas ... osting.php at the moment, if you want to check the code.

People could still quote additional posts to give further history in the rare cases it's useful, but clicking the quote icon on posts in the "TOPIC REVIEW" below the composition box.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

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mjr
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby mjr » 18 Apr 2018, 11:11am

thirdcrank wrote:Incidentally, I'm still in the dark about caused this to be raised. :?

Long posts have been mentioned and I'll raise my hand there. What about a post limit of, say, fifty characters? No words of more than two syllables?

Not long posts but long repetition of multiple previous posts, giving many discussions a discombobulated feeling of skipping back and forth through time. While your posts are often long (and informative), I think you often don't quote any context, so it's sometimes a challenge to understand what you're actually replying to - why is that?

thirdcrank wrote:On the wider subject of quoting, it seems pointless to me to quote in full an entire post to discuss one bit. I presume the people who do it have their own good reasons and I suppose there's always a risk of commenting on a post which is then edited without a record of what was originally posted but so what?

I think people do it because the system automatically pastes in the last few posts and editing them is a time-consuming nuisance, especially on many mobile devices, but maybe I'm wrong.

So, let me ask everyone: why don't you trim what you quote to just what you discuss?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

thirdcrank
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Apr 2018, 12:53pm

mjr wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:Incidentally, I'm still in the dark about caused this to be raised. :?

Long posts have been mentioned and I'll raise my hand there. What about a post limit of, say, fifty characters? No words of more than two syllables?

Not long posts but long repetition of multiple previous posts, giving many discussions a discombobulated feeling of skipping back and forth through time. While your posts are often long (and informative), I think you often don't quote any context, so it's sometimes a challenge to understand what you're actually replying to - why is that?

thirdcrank wrote:On the wider subject of quoting, it seems pointless to me to quote in full an entire post to discuss one bit. I presume the people who do it have their own good reasons and I suppose there's always a risk of commenting on a post which is then edited without a record of what was originally posted but so what?

I think people do it because the system automatically pastes in the last few posts and editing them is a time-consuming nuisance, especially on many mobile devices, but maybe I'm wrong.

So, let me ask everyone: why don't you trim what you quote to just what you discuss?


I'm still in the dark. :? There must be something that triggered this beyond a wish for some sort of tidying up. I'm sorry - really sorry - if it's a challenge to understand what I'm referring to. I rarely quote a whole post and when I do quote I really do try to quote the bit I'm referring to and without intending to distort by selective quoting. I also try to be meticulous about things like indicating if I've added emphasis. I'm cautious about enraging other posters, especially by provoking "where did I say that?" ripostes. One tip I picked up (from meic?) is sometimes deleting the name of the poster from a quote so it looks less like a personal attack. I'm also firmly of the view that responsibility for clarity rests mainly with the sender of any communication, so I do try to clarify anything when asked. I do have a big back catlogue on here and my posts would be even longer if I had to start from square one every time. Everybody has their own quirks of style and they are probably more obvious when somebody writes a lot. An irony emoji would suit my needs.

I'll look forward to replies to your question addressed to everyone. That's much more interesting to me than nested quotes. :D

AlaninWales
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby AlaninWales » 18 Apr 2018, 12:54pm

mjr wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:What mjr is suggesting does not just change the default, it changes the maximum limit and prevents any more than a single level of quote.

I think that's incorrect. I'm fairly sure it changes the default. Line 1614 of https://github.com/phpbb/phpbb/blob/mas ... osting.php at the moment, if you want to check the code.

People could still quote additional posts to give further history in the rare cases it's useful, but clicking the quote icon on posts in the "TOPIC REVIEW" below the composition box.

:lol:
A coder vs a systems integrator :wink: . I would not rely on checking part of the code, but on testing the result.
In any case the referred paragraph of code says "Remove quotes that would become nested too deep before decoding the text" which is exactly what happens when I manually add in extra depth of quotes. I.e. this code is used when the user presses the submit button on an edited quote.
This neatly ties in with the actual label of the item you are requesting is changed: "Maximum nesting depth for quotes:"
So, according to the code comments, the property label and the simple test using the current setting (which exhibits precisely the behaviour in the code comments), this is indeed the "Maximum nesting depth for quotes:" - which it also happens (unsurprisingly) to give by default when the quote button is used.


Edit to add: The experiment shows that (precisely as the code comments suggests) if the quote depth exceeds this setting, the (earliest) extra quotes are removed. This happens even when the depth is increased manually so reducing this setting would not allow the user to "quote additional posts to give further history in the rare cases it's useful" - they would be (are) removed.

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mjr
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby mjr » 18 Apr 2018, 1:01pm

AlaninWales wrote:A coder vs a systems integrator :wink: . I would not rely on checking part of the code, but on testing the result.

I have tested it, but I hope you'll understand why I didn't jump through all the hoops to secure a short-term installation on work's test servers to open it to the public internet and link it from here.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Quote Depth?

Postby AlaninWales » 18 Apr 2018, 1:03pm

mjr wrote:So, let me ask everyone: why don't you trim what you quote to just what you discuss?

I often do, but refrain from doing so when I believe it would lessen the sense (e.g. lead to people having to page backwards too much, to see how the conversation developed). Sometimes (as I am sure you have noticed) replies to a reply deny the sense of the original post, so having it available without paging can be useful.
Despite my care to preserve context, I have occasionally been called on having quoted out of context, because I have shortened the original post to what seems to be to be a separate point relevant to my reply.