feedback about moderation

Anything about use of this forum : NOT about cycling
thirdcrank
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Oct 2018, 7:25pm

PH wrote:All the members of this forum have signed up to the terms before posting, they're not hard to follow by most reasonable people. IMO it's the posters as well as the offending posts that should be removed, at least those who are serial offenders. Some of them seem to take delight in being offensive and it shouldn't be acceptable.
I've been on this forum since it started and except where a post has been caught up in a purge of replies I've been moderated once. Rightly so, I called some one an idiot rather than explain why what they were saying was idiotic.
(My emphasis)


We have had people banned but I don't remember many, although it may have been done discreetly. This has reminded me about something else with strictly defined rules is that some people tend to go as near to the edge as possible then look for a legalistic explanation. We had a bit of this with the "bad language" rules and there's a tendency to look for lists of what's acceptable and then test it with innuendo and "adult" language. Swearing washes over me - I've heard it all - but it's offensive to many people and for different reasons (family audience; so much bad language demeans women etc.) Anyway, you can only try to set the tone. If people decide they don't want to follow the spirit of rules, you can be sure they will try to test the letter of the rules.

It seems sycophantic to support the moderators but they have my support over this.

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mjr
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby mjr » 14 Oct 2018, 9:54pm

PH wrote:I've been on this forum since it started and except where a post has been caught up in a purge of replies I've been moderated once.

Either we don't get told every time we're moderated or I've been moderated only once, which I find hard to believe, knowing me and especially some of the medication-assisted rants a few years back.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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thirdcrank
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Oct 2018, 10:00pm

On a technical point, I discovered back in my spambuster days that moderators etc can edit posts without it generating the line at the bottom showing how many times a post has been edited. Anyway, if somebody's post is edited and they know they didn't do it, it must be a moderator.

Psamathe
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby Psamathe » 14 Oct 2018, 10:29pm

thirdcrank wrote:On a technical point, I discovered back in my spambuster days that moderators etc can edit posts without it generating the line at the bottom showing how many times a post has been edited. Anyway, if somebody's post is edited and they know they didn't do it, it must be a moderator.

I do think that where a post is edited (rather than deleted) there should be something explicit e.g. <text edited by moderators> or <paragraph removed by moderators> or something stating what has been done ... and in italics. To edit without explicitly indicating such is in effect putting words in somebody else's mouth. Deleting the entire post is different as there is nothing with the poster's name but editing their words is different.

That said, I'm not accusing moderators of secretly editing peoples posts, just making it clear after my disagreement with placeholders for deleted posts.

Ian

brynpoeth
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby brynpoeth » 14 Oct 2018, 10:32pm

Sometimes there is a message at the bottom, "edited by moderator, reason", sometimes not

Could the settings be changed so this always appears? That would be better
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby Psamathe » 14 Oct 2018, 10:33pm

mjr wrote:
PH wrote:I've been on this forum since it started and except where a post has been caught up in a purge of replies I've been moderated once.

Either we don't get told every time we're moderated or I've been moderated only once, which I find hard to believe, knowing me and especially some of the medication-assisted rants a few years back.

We don't get told every time one of our posts is is deleted. I've had quite a lot of posts deleted, (hopefully) mostly where I've responded to an inappropriate post and thus it makes sense to delete mine along with the original inappropriate post.

Sometimes I've made a post in full knowledge it will disappear once the mods get round to it in defending myself against a personal attack post i.e. as long as the attacking post is up, so is my defence.

And I'm sure on occasions (hopefully not too frequently) I've got it wrong, broken my own personal standards, etc. and had my own post being the cause of reports and removal(s).

Ian

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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby Vorpal » 14 Oct 2018, 11:18pm

I sometimes send a pm when I remove someone's post. It's usually when they've violated a guideline (e.g. insulted someone), and either are new to the forum, or I think they need reminding about guidelines. I may also send a pm if I think the person won't know why the post has been removed, or if I think they need a warning.

I used to send a pm every time I removed or edited a post, but it got to be a fair amount of work.
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby Vorpal » 14 Oct 2018, 11:21pm

brynpoeth wrote:Sometimes there is a message at the bottom, "edited by moderator, reason", sometimes not

Could the settings be changed so this always appears? That would be better

I think the settings could be changed so that the last time it was edited always shows. By the reason requires someone typing it in. Also, if the last time it was edited always shows, that would also apply to each time the author edited it.
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gaz
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby gaz » 15 Oct 2018, 12:21am

Vorpal wrote:... if the last time it was edited always shows, that would also apply to each time the author edited it.

It already does, except when the author's post remains the last in the thread at the time of posting the edit.

I have no issues with the current moderation policy.

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John1054
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby John1054 » 15 Oct 2018, 7:31am

Soliman's decisions are not always clear cut. Discussion does go on behind the scenes when doubt may exist. Most of the banned ex-members would not appear to the Forum because their posts being deleted, eradicates them from the main board records. As Vorpal posted above, some moderation is discussed by PM. Sometimes the perceived problem can be resolved by re-wording, or removal of a phrase/word. If I'm in doubt, I ask first. What may appear wrong to me, might not fit others' idea of wrong, so we all learn from each other (on the job training?). Most of what we do is relatively easy and pleasurable, but now and again thorny issues/members take a lot of time and tolerance to deal with. Basically, we all try our best, perfection never quite attainable. Reports help draw attention to contentious issues and flag up for each of us to see, most are well appreciated, some are still dealt with, but don't result in moderation.

thirdcrank
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Oct 2018, 10:47am

I don't see an obvious mechanism for change here. The CTC/CyclingUK set the criteria originally and presumably keep an eye on things. The administrators, moderators and spambusters do a lot of work and tweak things. eg, Fonant has been engaged recently trying to sort out delays, and the activities of spambusters are evident from the almost total absence of spam. (I cannot remember when I last saw any.)

The rules are not onerous or numerous. The general forum membership is either satisfied or at the very worst apathetic about moderation.

I'll reiterate my personal view that greater, especially more detailed feedback over reasons for moderation would just prolong disputes, turning the focus of the anger onto moderators for things like being perceived to have taken sides.

Against that, a small number of forum members have raised issues which nobody really seems likely to address. The only route I can see is some sort of complaint to CyclingUK, but I'm at a loss to see what form it might take.

================================================================================================================

PS

It's occurred to me that while any decision on this is going to be top-down rather than democratic, I think it would useful to have some sort of measure of the views of the wider forum membership. Perhaps a poll is the answer. I'm not going to do it myself because it might be taken as provocative and there's often disagreement over the wording. Perhaps somebody else will give it a go.
Last edited by thirdcrank on 15 Oct 2018, 11:13am, edited 1 time in total.

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mjr
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby mjr » 15 Oct 2018, 11:08am

gaz wrote:
Vorpal wrote:... if the last time it was edited always shows, that would also apply to each time the author edited it.

It already does, except when the author's post remains the last in the thread at the time of posting the edit.

I have no issues with the current moderation policy.

Current practice doesn't match policy, specifically "In reality, should an issue occur the forum staff will normally contact the user concerned to explain any action that they have taken to try to sort out the issue in a friendly and amicable way." We don't even get told when our posts are deleted or edited. No-one can learn anything from that.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby mjr » 15 Oct 2018, 11:20am

thirdcrank wrote:We've had posts from time-to-time about the possibility of people being deterred from posting or even quitting the forum. Were I a moderator, I might be looking for the exit. Volunteers seem to be fewer than the critics, although the latter are not numerous.

When was the last call for volunteers anyway?

As I think I mentioned when this came up before, I'd want a beginners' boards added and ableism and a few other things banned in the rules before I'd mod here, but I think at least one of the current mods said they'd quit if those were banned, so unless there are other would-be mods wanting the same things, that seems like an effective rejection of my offer of help... and I believe every new mod changes the modding situation a bit, whether that's rule or process changes or simply entrenchment of the current position, so I feel it's best to be overt about it, not do something like keep quiet, get appointed and then surreptitously ignore and close reports I don't like, while cherrypicking others for action, until it gets noticed.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

brynpoeth
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby brynpoeth » 15 Oct 2018, 11:22am

What is ableism please?
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Re: feedback about moderation

Postby Vorpal » 15 Oct 2018, 11:43am

brynpoeth wrote:What is ableism please?

Discrimination against people with disabilities.

mjr wrote:...ableism and a few other things banned in the rules...

Personally, I think it's better to explain by reply why something is ableism, sexism, racism, etc., rather than banning them outright, except when they are clearly offensive. Also, it can be difficult for moderators to make appropriate judgements about something, especially if they do not belong to the protected class in question. Furthermore, opinions are likely to vary about whether something is or is not ableism, sexism, racism, etc.

mjr wrote:Current practice doesn't match policy, specifically "In reality, should an issue occur the forum staff will normally contact the user concerned to explain any action that they have taken to try to sort out the issue in a friendly and amicable way." We don't even get told when our posts are deleted or edited. No-one can learn anything from that.

Perhaps that should be reworded. If I explained every singly moderation action I took, I could sometimes spend several hours in a day explaining just moderation actions.

If somebody posts something that begins,'How stupid are you...', unless they are a new user, I'd like to think they could figure out what happened to their post. Along the same lines, if I remove multiple posts, I may send only one or two people a pm, asking them to stop insulting each other, and send nothing to the users who quoted the insults. Sometimes I just post on the thread.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom