A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

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ncutler
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by ncutler »

mikeymo wrote:*I'm fairly sure the organisation I referred to doesn't actually exist.


Interesting dilemma here. The post was reported; I read the report, read the post, pondered for a bit and decided to do nothing and leave it to mature overnight or possibly get dealt with by another mod.

My personal view is that we all have a duty to be as hostile as possible* towards 'far right' organisations but in this case tempered by the presumption that those organisations are not able to recognise irony.

Increasingly I take the view that the Tea Shop should be renamed "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" and all moderation withdrawn. Might draw the line at death threats or helmets.

* I don't think we should express such hostility towards individuals; in many cases it is not 'their fault' but the results of their unfortunate life experiences.
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thirdcrank
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by thirdcrank »

viewtopic.php?p=1589116#p1589116

I clarified my post there.
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by mikeymo »

ncutler wrote:My personal view is that we all have a duty to be as hostile as possible* towards 'far right' organisations...


So who is going to define what organisation is "far right"? You? It seems to me that practically all the time, the people throwing out the accusation of "far right" are those who could be accused of being on the "far left". Or is this one of those things where "we all know...."? The subtle compliance with group-think so common in the allegedly "progressive" politics.

ncutler wrote:...but in this case tempered by the presumption that those organisations are not able to recognise irony.


I don't think an "organisation" can recognise anything. People can. But of course it's easier to think about people as part of a group, or "organisation" isn't it?

ncutler wrote:Increasingly I take the view that the Tea Shop should be renamed "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" and all moderation withdrawn. Might draw the line at death threats or helmets.


That would be an excellent move. That way you (the mods) wouldn't have to tiptoe around trying to work out whether people have crossed some undefined "line". You'd be able to spend a lot more time on the bike.
Last edited by mikeymo on 27 Mar 2021, 12:53am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ride-sleep-repeat
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by Ride-sleep-repeat »

mikeymo wrote:
Paulatic wrote:The post above has changed since I last read it :shock:
Author deleted or moderated?
The original, although a shocking disclosure, made the point succinctly and I felt without argument. The current post is not as powerful.
ps I didn’t believe you :wink:


The original was simply deleted (by a moderator, I assume). Yes, the "shocking disclosure" you refer to is indeed untrue*, and was intended to be ironic, an irony which you clearly recognised.

It's difficult to believe that whichever mod deleted the post didn't also recognise the irony. But if they didn't, it's a strange approach don't you think? That if somebody reveals membership of a hated organisation, that revelation should be deleted? Rather than their beliefs examined or challenged? EDIT Or reported to the police if necessary. END EDIT

And if the mod did recognise the irony, why didn't they also recognise the point I am making, as you have done?

*I'm fairly sure the organisation I referred to doesn't actually exist.

As soon as I read the original,which I understood straight away BTW,I knew it would be cut/edited/moderated.
Apparently it was reported(by who?) which I personally find more disturbing than the original content(if that was infact true).
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by Paulatic »

Ride-sleep-repeat wrote:]
As soon as I read the original,which I understood straight away BTW,I knew it would be cut/edited/moderated.
Apparently it was reported(by who?) which I personally find more disturbing than the original content(if that was infact true).


Trusting your foresight isn’t based on hindsight you’re way ahead of me. I must admit I am finding it all very difficult to understand what is and what is not allowed. Did that post fall under "ad hominem attacks" that’s a term I’m not clear about so looked up to find appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect I thought it was quite an intellectual reply but what do I know?

I would hope it’s never revealed to all and sundry who reported it as that would not be ethical. I can’t foresee me ever reporting anything I take what comes give back what I can and ignore if I wish. For some reason some users 'last visit time' never appear on their profile but posting times do.
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by mikeymo »

Paulatic wrote:
Ride-sleep-repeat wrote:]
As soon as I read the original,which I understood straight away BTW,I knew it would be cut/edited/moderated.
Apparently it was reported(by who?) which I personally find more disturbing than the original content(if that was infact true).


Trusting your foresight isn’t based on hindsight you’re way ahead of me. I must admit I am finding it all very difficult to understand what is and what is not allowed. Did that post fall under "ad hominem attacks" that’s a term I’m not clear about so looked up to find appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect I thought it was quite an intellectual reply but what do I know?

I would hope it’s never revealed to all and sundry who reported it as that would not be ethical. I can’t foresee me ever reporting anything I take what comes give back what I can and ignore if I wish. For some reason some users 'last visit time' never appear on their profile but posting times do.


Actually, I don't know where you read that definition of "ad hominem attack", but my understanding of it is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Sometimes characterised as "playing the man not the ball". It's one of many logical fallacies - "what you say is wrong, because you are a nasty person" sort of thing. Which is a fallacy, because even the most unpleasant person may speak the truth.

There was no mention of another person in my original, ironic post. But I used an "N" word, though not the one you may be thinking of. If you go back to my post*, and substitute the name of a political movement beginning with the letter "N" in the place of the "BNP" that should give you a sense of my original, moderator-deleted, post.

*which said post I've just screenshotted, in preparation for yet more irrational moderation.
Last edited by mikeymo on 26 Mar 2021, 9:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
thirdcrank
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by thirdcrank »

... I can’t foresee me ever reporting anything ...


I don't report anything I'm personally involved in and I don't think I report much, but not knowing how much others report, I've nothing for comparison.

I like to think I'm constructive.

Spam. Not much gets through the system but as a recent example, a one-time poster had left it a while then returned to edit their post to include some links. A cunning stunt to get under the radar.

Risk of legal action against the forum or cUK. A few years ago there was a contentious case in Scotland involving tacks spread on the road and discussion on here seemed to be infringing the strict sub judice rules in force there. On another occasion, I suggested to Graham using the auto-edit to prevent defamation of Halfords.

Occasionally, when something appears to be taking off, just to give the mods a chance to be aware from an early stage and thus possibly avoid the need for a lot of selective editing.
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by DevonDamo »

I read Mikey's supposedly offensive post. It went along the lines of "I am a member of [insert any fascist party name here] and I find this forum hostile. So is that the forum's fault?'

The meaning was crystal clear. He was using a hyperbolic statement to respond directly to the point made in the post above his. He picked a personal trait that he thought most of us would agree was unacceptable (i.e. being a fascist) and was asking us to consider whether it would be a failing of the forum if such a person felt unwelcome. It was an effective way of making a point and the only inference we can draw from this about mikey is that he doesn't like fascists and doesn't think the rest of us do either. His statement was no more inflammatory than the example I used earlier of a hypothetical forum member advocating the drinking of bleach - it was a rhetorical device, not a statement of position.

The fact that this was moderated demonstrates that a moderator has failed to understand the point being made. In this case, it's not a subjective judgemental issue (as I was talking about in my previous posts in this thread) or a failure in priorities (i.e. the 'politeness over content' issue which I described in another moderation thread in this forum) but a simple failure to understand what mikey was saying and drawing a completely erroneous inference.

Moderators can choose to either do what NCutler describes, i.e. effectively give unclear issues the benefit of the doubt, or they can go in with guns blazing, deleting or edit anything that gets in their way. I've made a vague attempt to be diplomatic here, but the elephant in the room is whether a pattern is emerging re. a moderator making bad calls. If so, then my earlier suggestion about getting second opinions on judgemental calls, starts to seem a bit more desirable and not just a pointless extra burden.
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by thirdcrank »

But we've managed to create an issue where IMO none existed. An infrequent poster posted about the atmosphere on the forum and I suggested it was important. (I'm not looking for a "Where did I say that?" skirmish. The posts are still there to read.) Ignoring the context, we are then off discussing how to react to extremists. A valid subject, but IMO quite separate.

To reiterate, I've not reported any of this to the moderators and I nearly missed this latest bit of discussion.
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by DevonDamo »

thirdcrank wrote:Ignoring the context, we are then off discussing how to react to extremists. A valid subject, but IMO quite separate.


Mikey's post was absolutely on-topic as far as the point you were making goes - he was directly engaging with your point and selectively quoting your post to make that clear. I agreed with Mikey's point, i.e. it's not necessarily a bad thing if not everyone feels a forum welcoming. If someone is a particularly unpleasant person (and a fascist was just used as an example of what that might mean) then a 'nice' forum shouldn't be a welcoming place for them.
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by thirdcrank »

AIUI, it disappeared overnight. I can't comment on what it said. The first inkling I had was when paulatic commented. What I've posted related to when this first came up. I can only re-reiterate, I've not reported any part of this so if somebody else has decided to do so or if a moderator has seen it and taken spontaneous action, that's a matter for them.
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by mikeymo »

It's a little reassuring that those who saw my post, for its brief mayfly existence, understood the point. And thankfully they guessed that I'm not actually a fascist.

The point I was making is that just because somebody finds an environment "hostile" doesn't mean that they automatically have a right to some sort of sympathy. There may be very good reasons why somebody finds an environment "hostile". And it may very well indeed be their "fault" (whatever that means).
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by Cowsham »

Coaster531 wrote:I have been lurking in the background reading this Forum for quite a while. There is a lot of interesting and valuable material here.

However, I find that the tone of this Forum is not an inviting one. It does not encourage me to post, because doing so may produce a hostile response.

I don't understand why this is the case. Does anyone?


Sometimes the hostility can come from the most unlikely of things -- I didn't know about the anti hi vis and helmets thing -- that came as a complete surprise to me, so much so I thought they were taking the p at first. Even more surprising is that at least one of the moderators is an anti helmet hi-vis'er.

It doesn't bother me at all now that I understand there are some diverse views held even by the moderators. I certainly wouldn't want to be a moderator.

It's like at work I can't innocently mention vaccines or anything to do with covid since the person your talking to could be a militant non believer and also be your boss or future boss.
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by Ride-sleep-repeat »

Cowsham wrote:It's like at work I can't innocently mention vaccines or anything to do with covid since the person your talking to could be a militant non believer and also be your boss or future boss.

That works both ways.
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Re: A thesis on moderation and why it's crap for everyone

Post by Cowsham »

Ride-sleep-repeat wrote:
Cowsham wrote:It's like at work I can't innocently mention vaccines or anything to do with covid since the person your talking to could be a militant non believer and also be your boss or future boss.

That works both ways.


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