because there is a women's cycling interest forum....

Anything about use of this forum : NOT about cycling
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fossala
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because there is a women's cycling interest forum....

Postby fossala » 17 May 2014, 9:08am

<MOD: these posts have been split from: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=86872 so that the OP can get an answer that she wants without having to wade through discussion of whether she should have posted it where she did - this is not to say that the discussion shouldn't happen, but just to keep the two topics separate in an attempt to assist the OP>


This is why women's sections are bad. A mod should move this :lol: to "On the Road"

Women's sections should be about women specific troubles, this info could be helpful to everyone.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Fear of roads

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 17 May 2014, 9:30am

Hi,
fossala wrote:This is why women's sections are bad. A mod should move this :lol: to "On the Road"

Women's sections should be about women specific troubles, this info could be helpful to everyone.

+1

I have ben cycling on the road for 47 years, always cycle alone, 11 miles / day this year, and I fear the road too.

Its easy to say you have a right to be there, we all know that but it does'nt stop angry abusive jealous you are in front or you are overtaking in a jam drivers, from there constant unwarranted, unfounded, needless attention, I have incidents every ride just because I am there.

Dont know the answer, but its a people thing not just drivers hate of cyclist.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
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horizon
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Re: Fear of roads

Postby horizon » 17 May 2014, 9:49am

fossala wrote:This is why women's sections are bad. A mod should move this :lol: to "On the Road"

Women's sections should be about women specific troubles, this info could be helpful to everyone.


Only Lindak can tell us why she posted it in this section but post it she did. And maybe because it was a women's section. And maybe it wouldn't have been posted otherwise. So maybe the women's section is already performing exactly as it should.

If this post triggers a thread or discussion about men and women's fear of the road and the differences between them even better. I think it's a woefully unexplored topic and LindaK has done us all a favour by raising it here.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher

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Re: Fear of roads

Postby eileithyia » 17 May 2014, 9:57am

I confess as I was answering it did cross my mind it was a non-gender specific question, but also highlights the fact that some women may (and I stress may) perceive men to be confident macho types for whom any sort of cycling is not a scary place.... when the truth is there are all sorts of us whatever gender out there.

I agree stupid stuff happens most days, you just have to ignore most of it.... close passes are just that on the whole, close passes... and as long as no one was harmed.... it is just stuff and not personal... they probably do daft stuff like that to other car users.... we have to learn to move on... says she who swears n cusses like a gud 'un when someone does such things to me or mine....
I stand and rejoice everytime I see a woman ride by on a wheel the picture of free, untrammeled womanhood. HG Wells

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Re: Fear of roads

Postby Vantage » 17 May 2014, 12:03pm

fossala wrote:This is why women's sections are bad. A mod should move this :lol: to "On the Road"

Women's sections should be about women specific troubles, this info could be helpful to everyone.


Disagree entirely.
I don't believe anyone here other than a mod (and even then I wouldn't expect it) has any right to dictate what topics should or should not be discussed in the women's section.
I am sure the topic at hand will have been covered in one of the previous thousands of posts elsewhere on the forum if any male types wanted that info.
Call me crazy, but maybe the op wanted a women's view of the problem and has every right to expect that without us other lot spewing out anti-women's section balony? Maybe we could leave the ladies to it?
Bill


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Re: Fear of roads

Postby Lyndak » 17 May 2014, 12:29pm

Thank you for all the helpful advice. I posted here in the woman's section as I have explained in the previous posts as a beginner I feel a little intimidated on the main board. Not helped by reading posts from other women who have been told that they have a victim mentality for feeling scared in certain situations - although I realise this is a minority viewpoint. I don't want to get caught up in the rights and wrongs of a womens thread but will say if it had not been here I would not have posted and probably found another forum that understood that in order to encourage more women you need to make them feel comfortable

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Re: Split from 'Fear of roads'

Postby Si » 17 May 2014, 4:42pm

I can fully understand why many might think that this is a general issue, but I think that it is perfectly fine here for two reasons:

First: it's where LyndaK decided that she wanted to post it, or rather, felt comfortable posting it. In the original discussion about having a section on women's cycling it was pointed out by some that the forum is male dominated and that some (but certainly not but any means all) women might not feel confident posting straight into other sections for fear of the more established forum residents being critical. As it is, the thread has raised some criticism - which I'm sure was not meant as any kind of attack on LyndaK - but put yourself in the position of the OP: you pluck up the courage to post and amid the helpful answers you get all these other ones that can easily be read as saying that you are using the forum wrong and using your post as a pawn in some forum battle that you have nothing to do with. I don't claim here that LyndaK is a shrinking violet, and she may not be discouraged one iota by such posts, but some will.
Second: if you know anything about adult bikeability you will know why this issue is very relevant to women especially. I had, I think, my third male student since Christmas today, whereas I've had loads and loads of female. Is this because only women are taking up cycling?

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Re: Split from 'Fear of roads'

Postby Psamathe » 17 May 2014, 6:16pm

When I spend time answering a question on a forum, I am not only answering the question(s) raised, but hopefully contributing to a resource so others can view/use the answer(s) and discussion. A forum becomes a general open resource for many way beyond the original poster, including non-forum members.

So questions hidden away in an inappropriate forum section serve to restrict the usefulness of the question (and also the time respondents sent discussing). OK, some threads are more general chat, but many raise questions of broader applicability and thus form part of the resource me contribute to. I feel it is important for those asking questions as well as those responding to remember this - and thus contribute beyond their personal needs.

As to a "Women's' Section" - something I disagree with on a matter of equality. Had the forum introduced a "Mans' Section" instead I suspect there would have been significant objections (from being sexist to "we want one as well"). Apart from hiding questions of general interest (e.g. I had no idea about the thread referenced above - important as it was such a "fear" that stopped me taking up cycling again for many years).

So not only is such a section somewhat contrary to the principle of "equality" (something our society is striving towards), but it seems it is hiding relevant useful and interesting posts away from around 50% of the population.

I'm not a long-term member, but I don't see the male aggression here that might serve to justify such a section. Were the forum to have a number of aggressive macho intolerant males posting then that might serve as some justification, but it doesn't.

So I feel (strongly) that in our enlightened society where we strive to equality a "Women's' Section" is a very regressive step. And the nature of contributors to this forum make it an unnecessary step.

Ian

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Re: Split from 'Fear of roads'

Postby LollyKat » 17 May 2014, 11:50pm

Psamathe wrote:I'm not a long-term member, but I don't see the male aggression here that might serve to justify such a section. Were the forum to have a number of aggressive macho intolerant males posting then that might serve as some justification, but it doesn't.

But the mere fact that you keep trying to impose your opinions in this particular section is a perfect example of the kind of male aggression that discourages a lot of women!!!!!!

:lol: :lol: :cry: :cry:

You are perfectly entitled to your views but IMO you should be posting them in the Tea Shop rather than here. The original debate came about when it was asked why there were so relatively few women on the forum. If we want to encourage more women to cycle and join the cycling community it seems reasonable to have sections where they can feel more comfortable.

A number of women asked for a women's section - a number of women were happy to get it. Surprisingly, these women were perfectly aware of the pros and cons such as 'questions hidden away' but still wanted it. We can actually think, you know, and even make our own decisions. It would be so nice if "equality" meant that our decisions were respected....

[ Edit : Graham : "rant" description removed. ]

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Re: Split from 'Fear of roads'

Postby Psamathe » 18 May 2014, 12:07am

LollyKat wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I'm not a long-term member, but I don't see the male aggression here that might serve to justify such a section. Were the forum to have a number of aggressive macho intolerant males posting then that might serve as some justification, but it doesn't.

But the mere fact that you keep ranting and trying to impose your opinions in this particular section is a perfect example of the kind of male aggression that discourages a lot of women!!!!!!


I feel your response somewhat aggressive (and totally OTT). I feel describing my opinions as "ranting" a bit insulting. My opinions stem from a desire for equality (which means ...). Sorry if you don't like the idea of equality.

Ian

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Graham
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Re: Split from 'Fear of roads'

Postby Graham » 18 May 2014, 8:47am

I have to say that it was a very marginal decision, whether to set up this section. Ideally it should not be necessary, but in the real world let us give it a try ??
Time will tell whether it gets sufficient usage.

Here is an analogy :
As a vunerable road user I am despairing at the apparent bias of the existing UK motoring culture in favour of those behind the wheels of motor vehicles who :-
- endanger us
- bully us
- injure & kill us
In theory, we have equal status on the roads, in practice, it really does NOT feel like it.
I still have a faint hope that the bias can be changed to protect us and raise our apparent status ( . . . rather like one feels when cycling in France ). ***

The equivalence of this analogy probably fails for any number of reasons that you will tell me about.

This section of the forum is to encourage any women cyclists to post questions / comments / info / whatever, that they might not otherwise post elsewhere on the forum.

*** There are signs, at last, that things are gradually changing thanks to the significant increase in the number of people travelling by bicycle.

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Re: Split from 'Fear of roads'

Postby eileithyia » 18 May 2014, 8:50am

Isn't it time to leave it..... As stated both, within here and on the original thread that asked for women's section, I regret the need for this thread.
I have been around cycling long enough to not be intimidated by men who can be perceived to have a lot more knowledge and experience.
However with the larger numbers of ladies now starting to cycle, often not as part of a couple, it has become obvious, through various other media sites, that the ladies are finding it a bit scary to ask questions of men for fear being treated like the unknowledgeable 'little woman'.

Yes it is surprising to me who has quite broad shoulders and fairly thick skin, but that is from the position of someone who has been there done that....
Yet if I cast my mind back I can remember being very nervous about cycling, I was fortunate that my then boyfriend lent me a bike to use on club runs and introduced me to my first club run.... but I was still concerned not to be too slow, to hold the men up etc., in case they thought 'bliddy girl not fit enough to keep etc etc., and this was in a small friendly club many of whom I had met socially as they were also my boyfriend's friends both within and outside of cycling.
I had never ridden a bike with gears before and very often one of the group would ride alongside and say, push that lever this way or that way... why? Cos it will be easier..... yes but why?

The ladies are equal in that many of them feel they can go cycling, etc., but they want to know they will get appropriate advise without the testosterone that CAN pervade some clubs/forums etc.
I must admit it frustrates that they do feel this way and the men do still give out some of these signals....

I hope that the ladies find their way here, then realise the Gents really are not so bad, and many of them have their own insecurities, anxieties and gaps in knowledge and will then feel less anxious about venturing on to the main areas and cycling with men.....

For what it is worth I do try to encourage the ladies that the Gents really are not such a bad alien species... but it can be hard work sometimes.

So as I said can we leave it, let this section do the job it is designed to do... and encourage the ladies.
I stand and rejoice everytime I see a woman ride by on a wheel the picture of free, untrammeled womanhood. HG Wells

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Re: Split from 'Fear of roads'

Postby Bicycler » 18 May 2014, 11:48am

Hear, hear.

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Re: Split from 'Fear of roads'

Postby monxton » 18 May 2014, 12:12pm

Graham wrote:Here is an analogy: As a vunerable road user I am despairing at the apparent bias of the existing UK motoring culture in favour of those behind the wheels of motor vehicles ...

I agree, I have long considered that there is a useful comparision to be made between anti-women aggression and anti-cyclist aggression. The similarity is that assumption of contributory negligence, such that the vulnerable party, who should be protected by the law and by public opinion, is questioned and criticised. Many of the things the woman/cyclist has allegedly done wrong are the same - wearing the "wrong" kind of clothes, being in the "wrong" place, having the "wrong" attitutude, giving the other party the "wrong" signals.

There's also a stereotyping of the oppressed group, such that cyclists/women are talked about as if each is a homogeneous group with the same behaviours and opinions, which is evidently ridiculous. Young people these days are often telling each other to "check your privilege" which, while I must admit to finding irritating sometimes, can be useful shorthand for reminding us that when we are part of a privileged group, it's better to stop and actually listen to the other party.
Last edited by monxton on 24 Jul 2014, 4:10am, edited 2 times in total.

Psamathe
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Re: Split from 'Fear of roads'

Postby Psamathe » 18 May 2014, 12:27pm

monxton wrote:There's also a stereotyping of the oppressed group, such that cyclists/women are talked about as if each is a homogeneous group with the same behaviours and opinions, which is evidently ridiculous. It's a pity that Psamathe doesn't seem to have grasped this latter point.


Exactly the same applies to men. So you accuse me of stereotyping women, yet not men. Why are men a "homogenous group".

I am now beyond sick of being accused of all sort of nasty stuff. Several posts have accused me of really quite nasty character attributes. So we sympathise with women when nasty aggressive unfounded accusations are made in their direction, but it is quite acceptable for the same behaviour to be done to a bloke.

(And if you read what I have written you might just spot that I am arguing in favour of equality. And in a non-agressive manner.)

Sickening.

Ian