because there is a women's cycling interest forum....

[Bicycler]

Well our advertising was to a much larger audience and to an audience that was virtually half and half, as I've already pointed out: vast majority of respondents (high 90%s?) female. Which backs up pjclinch's view via a much wider, more balanced sample.

Si, you moderators have my sympathy on this one.

As this discussion has now been separated from the OP, I could suggest that the much higher number of women coming forward could be indicative of a reluctance amongst men to admit their fear. I think we could genuinely say that there is less of a social stigma surrounding women being afraid of something than men.

[monxton]

Si, you moderators have my sympathy on this one.

This discussion is certainly quite distressing, even though I have (happily) missed some posts which have been deleted. I'm sure it is creating a lot of unnecessary work for the mods. Far from being a relaxed safe place for women to post, this must be the most contentious area of the forums at present, which could be described as ironic.

I think it's time to consider, if you haven't already, that there is deliberate trolling going on. If a woman knows that posting in the women's area is going to result in an angry post about why she shouldn't be allowed to post in the women's area, that's a pretty good way of putting her off if you are trying to engineer the failure of the women's area. So mods, thanks for your work and please continue to move such posts and give the women's area a chance. Would it be possible to rename this particular topic, because "Split from 'Fear of Roads'" doesn't give you a clue that this is the topic where the argument about the existence of this area does take place. Then those who are here to talk about women's cycling issues can just ignore this topic and be happy. Unlike the mods.

[Bicycler]

I agree. All such posts debating the section's existence should be added to a single thread (this one renamed?) and future commentators posting elsewhere asked to contain discussion within the existing thread. I wouldn't go as far as to agree that it was trolling but bringing the discussion into every new thread posted is definitely not on.

[mjr]

I think it's time to consider, if you haven't already, that there is deliberate trolling going on.

You mean like posting accusing others of deliberate trolling?

I think we've seen from discussions about so-called "positive discrimination" in other places that there's a wide range of sincerely held views about whether it's counterproductive. What evidence is there of trolling?

[monxton]

The issue that I and Bicycler, above, are describing is that most new topics in this section have been used to re-open the debate about the existence of the section. I do not "accuse" any person of anything, I said that I had considered that trolling was a possibility, and if you are unhappy with that word I will readily exchange it for "flaming" which may be more technically correct because it is a specific rather than a general destructive behaviour.

With apologies for repeating what I said three posts above, if women are fearful of posting, then the behaviour in this section is surely off-putting, and could lead to the demise of the section. If those with thousands of posts won't recognise that others may see this as a form of bullying, then I think that reinforces the (unfortunate) need for moderation. My wish is to highlight the effect of the behaviour, not its motivation.

Thanks, mods, for changing the topic title.

[eileithyia]

Thank You, also to the Mods and the Gents who support this segment of the forum and see the positives within it, as a Moderator on the Women's section on Timetrialling forum, I was well aware that there was a competition going among some of the gents to be the first to be banned from the section...... the section settled down and it not over used, admittedly, but we discuss the women's results, up coming events and specific competitions regularly at this time of year.

I have asked several times, can we now stop this sort of discussion regarding the 'need' of this section, as I have said it has already proved the need of its existence and has already pulled in 2 lurkers to post....

I think it is now time to stop all these controversial posts, as everyone has put their point of view and there is clearly no middle ground nor will there be.

[Psamathe]

I think a lot of the problems here are driven because some expressing disagreement with the section (using moderate calm non-aggressive language) have received all sorts of accusations directed at them. A classic example:

So you do come across as having some 'quite nasty character attributes'.

(noting that my main disagreements with the section are based on equality; that it would be far better to address the stated reasons for the section in an inclusive manner rather than exclusive).

So appart from the direct insults, we are now having words like "trolling", "flaming" and "bullying" introduced.

Ian

[horizon]

I feel your response somewhat aggressive (and totally OTT). I feel describing my opinions as "ranting" a bit insulting. My opinions stem from a desire for equality (which means ...).

Ian

Ian : if it helps at all I would like to say that I fully respect your feelings on this matter and I too feel that you may have been a bit hard done by. But I disagree with your views. But that's normal on a forum. I'm hoping that you won't feel so hard done by though that you no longer feel it worth contributing - I've read lots of your (well reasoned) posts with enjoyment and interest.

But for now, I'm going to give my backing solidly and 100% to the women's section. I feel that we are just about to witness an avalanche of views, feelings, queries and ideas that emanate soley from a woman's perspective. The whole of cycling is riddled with outmoded prejudices and conventions: it may well be women who make the strongest challenge to them. And while there is even a single statistic (and there are plenty - just take the lorry deaths in London as a starter) that shows that women have a different experience of cycling from men, then there is a need IMV for a separate section.

We will all, us men included, benefit in the long run from such a section.

[Graham]

Let's just see how this section goes for a few months and hold back on the incessant navel-gazing.

Time to move on, eh ??

[mjr]

It's not time to move on until the men's interests board is created. Why won't you do this simple act of equality?

(Personally, I'd prefer neither existed but the current lopsided situation is worse.)

[Vantage]

I've seen women's sections on numerous cycling forums ever since I bought my first computer (in the PC sense) and joined the tinterweb sometime in the late 90's.
Never in all that time have I seen the stupid, pointless child-like "she has an icecream and so I must have one too" bickering that's going on here. It's frankly ridiculous.
So the CTC have finally joined the 21st century and introduced a women's section on its forum, big deal. That I know of, nobody's world has spontainiously imploded in a raging ball if fire. Deal with it and move on for crying out loud.

[Edwards]

It's not time to move on until the men's interests board is created.

Never in all that time have I seen the stupid, pointless child-like "she has an icecream and so I must have one too" bickering that's going on here. It's frankly ridiculous.

I love this and for me describes the situation as now really well.

[horizon]

Why won't you do this simple act of equality?

Because it isn't simple and it isn't a matter of just straightforward equality. I would give it a chance and then review it.

BTW mjr, I hope the moderators and other forum members will not rise to your bait in the wrong way. I find your terrier like grip on this topic highly amusing: I know you don't want to let it go and that you are serious about it. I would be very happy for this thread to run a bit longer as long as it doesn't become acrimonious.

I have two daughters both of whom are heavily involved in cycling: for their sakes alone I want to see this new section succeed. I know for certain that they have issues that I do not face and only the women's section will address properly.

[Vorpal]

It's not time to move on until the men's interests board is created. Why won't you do this simple act of equality?

Actually, I think that this is a fair question. And I don't know how the other moderators feel, but I can tell you how I feel about it.

I have mixed feelings. mostly because of the issues of equality that you and others have raised.

However, if we want to fix the problems that women (and other gender/sex-based minorities) face just because they are minorities, doing something that is a traditionally masculine activity; if we want to create a more egalitarian society, we must
-create space to safely discuss those issues
-help people think in terms of those issues

Then, and only then, can we offer any advice about overcoming them. In my opinion, it is no different than organisations which seek to encourage and support women to enter science and engineering fields. Or to encourage and support men to enter nursing.

Men may face some issues in cycling that are uniquely male, but few face overt discrimination or other issues that are solely due to being a member of a minority sex or gender. Our LGBT members face many of the same issues, and perhaps it should be a 'women and minorities interests' subforum, or 'women and LGBT subforum. The one time in the past that an LGBT board was discussed it was an even more heated and controversial subject. I'd like to think that we are ready to openly discuss such issues, and that this subforum can be a sign that we are.

[geocycle]

The problem seems to me to be that a few participants in this thread are starting from a different place to the majority of posters. Their position (eg on having a M forum to counter a W forum) would be logical if we already had equal participation between M and W in cycling and/or this forum. It is clear we don't. Therefore, just as in many walks of life it is important to put measures in place to address barriers and raise awareness. Personally, I always view new posts so I don't look where they are posted, but if a W forum helps encourage more W then great. It may work despite threads like this which can only discourage. Please can those insistent on stirring up issues give the new forum a chance and be sensitive to different view points.