because there is a women's cycling interest forum....

Anything about use of this forum : NOT about cycling
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pjclinch
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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby pjclinch » 28 May 2014, 9:19pm

Psamathe wrote:My concern is I have seen the really rather bad effects of positive discrimination.


I suspect you may well mean you have seen some really rather bad effects of positive discrimination. So have I. I've also seen some good effects of it. It's not a simple thing that's always good or always bad, it's a tool that may result in good, bad or mixed or indifferent effects according to how and where it is applied.

Psamathe wrote:So it is something I seek to avoid, by seeking equality as far as possible. And as I mentioned above, in the scenario of the forum there are far better solutions that address the stated aims in a gender neutral manner. And this seems unacceptable (now) I am wondering exactly what the real agenda is.


"far better solutions" to you, who state above that you are simply against positive discrimination, is not necessarily the same as "far better solutions" to someone in a group who feels negative discrimination as the background noise to their daily life. I wouldn't know, I'm not in that unfortunate position, but at least I'm aware of that fact and that it may look very different to someone who is.

"Real agenda"? Good grief! Occam's Razor tells you it's almost certainly not an "agenda", it's (trying to be!) a bit of gentle encouragement

Psamathe wrote:Who would that be and what are they doing. I don't watch what is going on in the section, but I would be surprised if people here were doing things "to ensure the section does not work".


My guess is that the sort of person who might be encouraged by the presence of this forum could very well be put right off it by the large amount of (mainly male) bellyaching that it shouldn't be here and doesn't deserve to exist. How welcome would you feel? I think I'd feel a bit like going on a club run, not being dropped as promised, but in the tea shop having to listen to the lycra crowd moaning about all the slow riders joining these days. It's just really not at all polite.

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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby Geoff.D » 28 May 2014, 9:22pm

Psamathe wrote:My concern is I have seen the really rather bad effects of positive discrimination.
Ian


It's a truism that, in such discussions as these, we all argue from our own perspectives and experiences. And we use our own vocabulary and associated concepts. I don't use the phrase "positive discrimination" in the same way that you appear to be using it here, Ian. Positive discrimination, in my understanding, is a policy which addresses an equality imbalance by enhancing the opportunities for the disadvantaged group/individual, with a corresponding reduction of the traditional advantages enjoyed by established group. I believe such a policy was one that created the bad effects that you saw in your professional life, which you described some time ago.

In this/our case there is an enhancement of the opportunities for women (the desired objective) but there is no corresponding reduction of the traditional opportunities enjoyed by the established group. None at all. Indeed, there's been a widening of the opportunities in that there is a new section, with new perspectives, with new contributors and a new knowledge base for us all to peruse.

If members of the established group feel discriminated against (ie they've lost out on something) then their sense of loss is certainly not of material, or opportunity, benefits. Unravelling those feelings is probably beyond the scope of this thread

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Re: because there is a womens' cycling interest subforum....

Postby sjs » 28 May 2014, 9:39pm

Edwards wrote:
mjr wrote:It's not time to move on until the men's interests board is created.



Vantage wrote:Never in all that time have I seen the stupid, pointless child-like "she has an icecream and so I must have one too" bickering that's going on here. It's frankly ridiculous.


I love this and for me describes the situation as now really well.


+1

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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby mjr » 28 May 2014, 9:57pm

randomblue wrote:Most people accessing information on previously written threads etc when looking for a specific topic would do so by searching, which as far as I'm aware isn't limited to a single forum or sub forum? So it's kind of irrelevant which section a thread is posted in in that regard because it will show up as a search result either way :)

OK well I switched to reading through the "view new posts" search so the ongoing misuse of this section becomes irrelevant (latest example: sweaty helmet hair... because only women have long hair, sweat or care that they're sweaty?) and now I'm reading veiled attacks above about how many men are in this forum!

There seems to be no winning. Do you want us to ignore that the board exists, or not?
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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby pjclinch » 29 May 2014, 8:06am

mjr wrote:OK well I switched to reading through the "view new posts" search so the ongoing misuse of this section becomes irrelevant (latest example: sweaty helmet hair... because only women have long hair, sweat or care that they're sweaty?) and now I'm reading veiled attacks above about how many men are in this forum!

There seems to be no winning. Do you want us to ignore that the board exists, or not?


I'd like you to get a bit of perspective as to why it might be here.

Of course you get men with long hair that sweat, but on the other hand they don't live in a society where their appearance is objectified and where they will suffer from ludicrous judgements as to their overall worth if their appearance is not tip-top. If I turn up for work looking like I've been dragged through a hedge backwards would have very different implications than if a female colleague did the same: not for the people close to us, but anyone else who happened to see. One of us would be an object of bemused amusement, the other of disgrace. That we're both people and we're both scruffy isn't the issue, because even though we are equal we are not judged equally.

Have a look at http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2014/may/05/sexual-assault-in-the-saddle-why-it-sucks-to-be-a-woman-cyclist-sometimes and then decide if that's a problem about gender, or if since it's almost certainly the case that the odd bloke gets slapped on his lycra-clad bottom that it's nothing to do with gender at all and it's preposterous to go on about it as anything other than a general problem.

And when you've done that my next suggestion is look very hard at the hole you're digging and put away your spade.

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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby Lyndak » 29 May 2014, 8:32am

mjr wrote:
randomblue wrote:Most people accessing information on previously written threads etc when looking for a specific topic would do so by searching, which as far as I'm aware isn't limited to a single forum or sub forum? So it's kind of irrelevant which section a thread is posted in in that regard because it will show up as a search result either way :)

OK well I switched to reading through the "view new posts" search so the ongoing misuse of this section becomes irrelevant (latest example: sweaty helmet hair... because only women have long hair, sweat or care that they're sweaty?) and now I'm reading veiled attacks above about how many men are in this forum!

There seems to be no winning. Do you want us to ignore that the board exists, or not?


I give up - you will never accept the need for this section despite the many explanations people have posted. I have received lots of supportive advice from both men and women on this section but it seems you and a few others are determined to make the section go away. I hope you don't manage to succeed but I am wary of starting new posts as I will be accused of putting them in the wrong place and we'll be off on the same old merry go round again

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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby Si » 29 May 2014, 8:41am

I, too, am mindful that this thread is progressing in such a way that it is likely to deter new posters. It does seem to be becoming a series of repeated posts by a few individuals who are unhappy with the new section of the board. Some of the reasons that they have put forward are, to my mind, good points, however some others are (again to my mind) helpful to no one. Thus I am moving the thread to the part of the forum dedicated to discussing the forum so that debate can freely continue but without the risk of it damaging the potential for the new section. Likewise any further such posts criticising the new section will be moved to here for the same reasons (or just binned off if people insist on putting them in the wrong place when they know better, and thus making more work for the mods.

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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby Vantage » 29 May 2014, 9:51am

Woohoo!
Good move Si :D
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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby Vorpal » 29 May 2014, 10:08am

I was thinking about doing something with this last night. I worried that it might be off-putting, and I considered locking the thread, but that wasn't a complete solution, and I went to bed without having decided to do anything.

Thanks, Si :)
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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby Edwards » 29 May 2014, 10:22am

Sorry Si I wish I had kept out as I said I should.
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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby LollyKat » 29 May 2014, 10:43am

Thank goodness! I've been debating whether to ask the mods to move it but thought I'd better keep out of it.

Respect and thanks to all the mods who do a time-consuming and sometimes difficult task without complaint.

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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby Graham » 29 May 2014, 12:00pm

Well done Si. A good move.

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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby Bicycler » 31 May 2014, 11:32am

On reflection, I think it would be good to have some definition of what are specifically women's cycling interests. Somebody has posted a link to the obituary of a female record holder in this category. I'm a bit concerned that if we're not careful anything done by or involving women cyclists will be deemed to be only of interest to women. This relegation of the importance of women's achievements is inconsistent with the aims of the section and indeed the wider promotion of women's competitive cycling

I'm not intending to cause further controversy on the subject of the section, but this issue will need addressing at some point. I've posted this in the appropriate discussion so as not to trouble the mods.

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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest forum....

Postby gaz » 31 May 2014, 2:22pm

Most of the boards include posts that would be relevant on another board as well. The OP makes the judgement on best fit.

If a forum member thinks they've got that judgement badly wrong they can flag the thread up to the mods.

All forum members are welcome to view and contribute to the threads on the Women's Cycling Interests forum board.
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Re: because there is a women's cycling interest subforum....

Postby Bicycler » 31 May 2014, 2:50pm

Yes there is overlap between sections. What I was suggesting is that it might be better to reduce that overlap by narrowing the remit of the new section so that it better reflects what I believed were the aims in creating the section. It was not created as a helmet section type ghetto to remove all mention of women from the rest of the boards, it was created to allow discussion of female-specific issues and encourage new female posters. If the definition of "womens cycling interests" is going to be so broad as to include everything that a woman may find interesting or which involves (or potentially involves) a woman then it doesn't merely overlap the other sections, it envelops them. Virtually any subject on any of the boards could fit that definition.

It is fine saying that men can contribute to the women's section, however I think that it is predictable (and understandable) that some women will get annoyed if the male members of the forum start discussing among themselves in the women's section. After all, an aim of the section was to allow a female perspective to be put forward on some issues.

As this was a subject that I wished to comment on, I chose to comment on the other thread on the same subject in the more general section of the forum where I felt more comfortable. Nevertheless, we now have duplicate threads. Is one of these going to be moderated away or are we going to accept that certain subjects discussed will inevitably end up with 2 threads for 2 different types of forum user?

It just seems a messy solution and I honestly think that a more clearly defined remit would be of benefit both to the section and the forum as a whole