The Communist Party and political image

[bovlomov]

When Ken Livingstone was standing to be Mayor of London, as an independent, the campaign against him - not least from Labour - was almost identical to that against Corbyn. He was dangerous, irresponsible, hard left, friend of terrorists... blah, blah.

Whatever one thinks of Livingstone, those accusation fell away almost immediately after he was elected, as it became obvious that they were unsustainable. Within a very short time, Blair, who had used some of those very words against Livingstone, was campaigning alongside him.

The present Mayor of London was up against a similar campaign organised by Linton Crosby.

None of that necessarily reflects on Corbyn, but it's worth remembering that the UK media and political classes have no sense of proportion, and the received wisdom that they spout is often utter cobblers.

If Corbyn ever got elected, his position wouldn't allow him to do anything wild. And he'd be hard pressed to do anything as irresponsible as some of the things done by PMs and government ministers during the past few decades.

Like him or loathe him, he really isn't dangerous. There's no need to get hysterical.

[Tangled Metal]

Corbyn is old school socialist who has been chanting the same mantra for decades. Perfectly honourable, but not pragmatic. The UK public does not go for that brand of socialism. Labour leaders who have won power have done so by seeking out a pragmatic middle ground. Corbyn has nothing to offer that would win over those who do not see themselves as definite lefties. Here in the former Labour stronghold of Wales there is a real possibility that Labour could end up with fewer MPs than the Tories for the first time in more than a century.

+1 above.

He's struggling to connect with enough people outside of those who have always associated themselves with his political views. He's missing the mark on policies with the wider electorate and as a leader capable of supporting he's definitely struggling. As much as polls get criticised there's a clear margin for error when it comes to leadership approval. Whether you hold my opinion that he's struggling or not, there is enough margin of error in leadership rating polls among the wider electorate to believe he's lacking in that characteristic any political leader needs.

If the Welsh polls are true come the election and Labour majority among Welsh MPs is lost or close to being lost then should Corbyn step down? Is it an honourable thing to continue as leader if you're close to losing a Labour stronghold like Wales? Miliband went with the loss of Scottish MPs. Would Corbyn show his much praised (among supporters) honourable side and resign?

BTW I am of the opinion there's been too much credit given to Corbyn. It's like he's the first true left leader of the Labour party since Foot and as a result those of a left leaning politically have got completely behind him as the only game in town. It's like there's Corbyn or nobody for the left so he's put on a higher pedestal than he's worthy of. Just my opinion and probably that of the minority on this forum. So I reckon I'll keep the rest of.my opinions to myself and stick to cycling topics. It's my more acceptable side on this forum.

[reohn2]

TM
I reckon you're always welcome to your opinion as other posters are,but what is the alternative to the Tories?
Assuming you don't think they are the answer.
If you do think they're the answer,I'd welcome your views.

So far you and a couple of others have rubbished Corbyn's leadership based on him being steadfast in his beliefs and not pragmatic enough to lead a government.I can only say that the present PM and previous two Tory PM's have had those very same credentials in the polar opposite right wing line,and as a result we are where we are.
I'm prepared for a completely new direction for the country should Labour win the election,which won't be an easy ride granted,but a much better one than if the Tories win,the same Tories who have proved their failure since coming to power in '79 (Blair was no more than a Tory in Nude Labour clothing).
If we want good health and social care,good education,and at least some industry other than a 'service' one that shifts money around for benefit of the few.And something more inspirational than one of being what you own,then a new approach is needed.
I firmly believe a left wing government can deliver on that,I also believe Corbyn isn't a presidential type PM like we've come expect and I believe that's his strength ,I also believe he is vastly underestimated thanks to a media owned buy Tory puppeteers.
If you think this is the way things should continue then YVMV from mine but I think there's a better future than what lies ahead under the Tories,where wealth is a virtue,taxes are arbitrary the more wealth you accrue,and the devil take the hindmost.
Where the very people the health and welbeing of the nation depends on are continually lied to and denied a decent living wage, then go ahead vote Tory.

[reohn2]

When Ken Livingstone was standing to be Mayor of London, as an independent, the campaign against him - not least from Labour - was almost identical to that against Corbyn. He was dangerous, irresponsible, hard left, friend of terrorists... blah, blah.

Whatever one thinks of Livingstone, those accusation fell away almost immediately after he was elected, as it became obvious that they were unsustainable. Within a very short time, Blair, who had used some of those very words against Livingstone, was campaigning alongside him.

The present Mayor of London was up against a similar campaign organised by Linton Crosby.

None of that necessarily reflects on Corbyn, but it's worth remembering that the UK media and political classes have no sense of proportion, and the received wisdom that they spout is often utter cobblers.

If Corbyn ever got elected, his position wouldn't allow him to do anything wild. And he'd be hard pressed to do anything as irresponsible as some of the things done by PMs and government ministers during the past few decades.

Like him or loathe him, he really isn't dangerous. There's no need to get hysterical.

+1
But one thing he won't be is the wealthy wo/mans pussycat.

[landsurfer]

If we want good health and social care, good education, and at least some industry other than a 'service' one that shifts money around for benefit of the few.

Cant argue, and won't, about the first 2 ... but industry ?....
Explain how Corbyn's Labour Party is going to stimulate industry outside the service industries ..... And service industries are not just bankers.
Genuine interest in this .....

[reohn2]

If we want good health and social care, good education, and at least some industry other than a 'service' one that shifts money around for benefit of the few.

Cant argue, and won't, about the first 2 ... but industry ?....
Explain how Corbyn's Labour Party is going to stimulate industry outside the service industries ..... And service industries are not just bankers.
Genuine interest in this .....

If I were that clever I'd be running for PM.
But there are ways to attract industry to the UK,leaving the EU in the hope of gaining trade with the US and other countries isn't one of them.
ATM the Tories are privatising the health service by stealth and starving education of funds whilst trying to introduce a grammar school system designed to polarise education and giving continued tax breaks to private education.

[landsurfer]

If we want good health and social care, good education, and at least some industry other than a 'service' one that shifts money around for benefit of the few.

Cant argue, and won't, about the first 2 ... but industry ?....
Explain how Corbyn's Labour Party is going to stimulate industry outside the service industries ..... And service industries are not just bankers.
Genuine interest in this .....

If I were that clever I'd be running for PM.
But there are ways to attract industry to the UK,leaving the EU in the hope of gaining trade with the US and other countries isn't one of them.
ATM the Tories are privatising the health service by stealth and starving education of funds whilst trying to introduce a grammar school system designed to polarise education and giving continued tax breaks to private education.

So could you explain what is bad about using private medical companies to provide health care ?
If the NHS contract a company to provide care it will be subject to all the NHS quality systems.
My only concern is that staff would be bled from the NHS to support private companies.
But the decision to make all nurses have a degree, end bursaries, and recruit from countries short of medical staff is unacceptable.
But private service providers have a place.

We have a local company that started off as a taxi outfit ( really) and now provides ambulance services, not first responder, taking people back and forward to hospital for appointments.

P.S. I went to a grammar school, my nephews, now 23 and 18 went to grammar schools, my sister went to a grammar school, non fee paying all of them .... TFJ's brothers (3) went to Thomas Rotherham Grammar school .... guess where...lol
My dad was a joiner, my nephews parents ... car mechanic and secretary, TFJ's parents, Pit Deputy at Silverwood Pit and house wife ....
Working class all ....
And all benefited ... themselves and society.

[bovlomov]

Cant argue, and won't, about the first 2 ... but industry ?....
Explain how Corbyn's Labour Party is going to stimulate industry outside the service industries ..... And service industries are not just bankers.
Genuine interest in this .....

Here.

McDonnell said this would involve a national investment bank borrowing £100bn, which would in turn “lever in” £150bn more in private funding to help invest in infrastructure and skills.

He compared the idea to the Bank of England’s injection of £70bn into the economy through quantitative easing.

Is that better or worse than Tory policy?

[Ben@Forest]

Going back (sort of) to the original thread title I read David Aaronovitch’s ‘Party Animals’ a year or so back. He was brought up in a communist household and it gives a great account of why some people were communist, why they stayed communist even after events like the Prague Spring or realisation that it was the Soviets who’d killed 10,000 Polish officers in the Katyn Forest (I know people will say that that wasn’t communism but it was the political brand most British communists allied themselves with).

His father was a communist official but had a far better life once he left Party work and became an academic, his mother (from a middle-class background) was desolate when people left the Party (as did Aaronovitch himself eventually) she demanded loyalty above all else.

It’s a really good book, worth reading for the mindset.

[landsurfer]

And now more jobs move away from York ..... How is Corbyn going to stop that happening ?

[reohn2]

So could you explain what is bad about using private medical companies to provide health care ?

Private companies exist to make profit.
Public services exist to provide a service to the community,and if run correctly will provide that service cheaper than private companies.

If the NHS contract a company to provide care it will be subject to all the NHS quality systems.

But we know how the private care companies treat their employees,would you wish that to continue so those companies make more profit.

My only concern is that staff would be bled from the NHS to support private companies.

You mean like they are now such as in the 'banking' system within the NHS?

But the decision to make all nurses have a degree, end bursaries, and recruit from countries short of medical staff is unacceptable.

Agreed,nurses should be trained on the job as well as academically.
One of my daughters used to be a Midwife,so I'm well aware of the way the system works.

But private service providers have a place.

We disagree on this as it's a National Health Service and as such should be run by the people for the people,not for the profit of private companies.

We have a local company that started off as a taxi outfit ( really) and now provides ambulance services, not first responder, taking people back and forward to hospital for appointments.

And you think that couldn't be done better by a non profit making part of the NHS?

P.S. I went to a grammar school, my nephews, now 23 and 18 went to grammar schools, my sister went to a grammar school, non fee paying all of them .... TFJ's brothers (3) went to Thomas Rotherham Grammar school .... guess where...lol
My dad was a joiner, my nephews parents ... car mechanic and secretary, TFJ's parents, Pit Deputy at Silverwood Pit and house wife ....
Working class all ....
And all benefited ... themselves and society.

The same standard of education should be available to all students irrespective of ability so each can reach their full potential.
I've no problem with streaming within a school,but have problems with grammar schools where one exam at a particular time in a student's school life determines a better education provided by smaller classes and the cream of teachers, if they pass.

I've even more of a problem when more well to do parents can afford to pay for private tutors to get their children through that exam.
It breeds exclusivity and perpetuates the class system I find so abhorrent within UK society.
YVMV mine won't.

[landsurfer]

So could you explain what is bad about using private medical companies to provide health care ?

Private companies exist to make profit.
Public services exist to provide a service to the community,and if run correctly will provide that service cheaper than private companies.
But the problem is thats not the case, public services breed managers and if run correctly is the key phrase here.

If the NHS contract a company to provide care it will be subject to all the NHS quality systems.

But we know how the private care companies treat their employees,would you wish that to continue so those companies make more profit.
How do private care companies treat their staff ... if its illegal tell us who and now.

My only concern is that staff would be bled from the NHS to support private companies.

You mean like they are now such as in the 'banking' system within the NHS?
A system put in place by the NHS, riddled with ex NHS managers sucking money out of the care system.

But the decision to make all nurses have a degree, end bursaries, and recruit from countries short of medical staff is unacceptable.

Agreed,nurses should be trained on the job as well as academically.

But private service providers have a place.

We disagree on this as it's a National Health Service and as such should be run by the people for the people,not for the profit of private companies.
The people in the private companies are not from Mars ... they are the people.

We have a local company that started off as a taxi outfit ( really) and now provides ambulance services, not first responder, taking people back and forward to hospital for appointments.

And you think that couldn't be done better by a non profit making part of the NHS?
But there isn't one.

P.S. I went to a grammar school, my nephews, now 23 and 18 went to grammar schools, my sister went to a grammar school, non fee paying all of them .... TFJ's brothers (3) went to Thomas Rotherham Grammar school .... guess where...lol
My dad was a joiner, my nephews parents ... car mechanic and secretary, TFJ's parents, Pit Deputy at Silverwood Pit and house wife ....
Working class all ....
And all benefited ... themselves and society.

The same standard of education should be available to all students irrespective of ability so each can reach their full potential.
I've no problem with streaming within a school,but have problems with grammar schools where one exam at a particular time in a student's school life determines a better education provided by smaller classes and the cream of teachers, if they pass.
Me, my sister, TFJ brothers were all subject to the the 11 Plus, I failed. But i was moved ... by my state school to the local Grammar...after my first year.

I've even more of a problem when more well to do parents can afford to pay for private tutors to get their children through that exam.I breeds exclusivity and perpetuates the class system I find so abhorrent within UK society.
My family, all working class, all hard working, non benefit claiming. Not a private tutor in sight

What have you got against non state school tutors ... surely they have a right to earn a living and support their families ..

YVMV mine won't.

YVMV .... Sorry, give me a clue please ....

[reohn2]

But the problem is thats not the case, public services breed managers and if run correctly is the key phrase here.

That's why I made the distinction.

How do private care companies treat their staff ... if its illegal tell us who and now.

Not paying their staff what they're worth and in the case of care workers doing what used to be called 'home help' not paying them for travel times between jobs,etc,etc,evidence abounds.

A system put in place by the NHS, riddled with ex NHS managers sucking money out of the care system.

Yes put in place by privatisation measures within the system,we are agreed.

The people in the private companies are not from Mars ... they are the people.

I didn't say they were from Mars
I'm simply saying that private companies priority is profit,when that profit isn't enough to make it worthwhile they walk away,that what's happening to privately owned care homes ATM.

And you think that couldn't be done better by a non profit making part of the NHS?

But there isn't one.

Because it's been privatised!

Me, my sister, TFJ brothers were all subject to the the 11 Plus, I failed. But i was moved ... by my state school to the local Grammar...after my first year.

You were luck many wouldn't have been,whereas if all student were in the same adequately funded school which was streamed you would've been moved up to a higher stream like I was.

My family, all working class, all hard working, non benefit claiming. Not a private tutor in sight

I'm casting no aspersions on your family,merely pointing out the flaws that exist within a present day grammar school exam system.

What have you got against non state school tutors ... surely they have a right to earn a living and support their families ..

Nothing whatsoever just that their talents could be used within the system,my S in L's sister works in the private school system,currently teaching English and sport in a Chinese private school.
Her reasons for working in private schools are small classes,extremely good working conditions and a much better salary,provided by rich parents paying the fees.
If the same sort of working conditions were available within state schools they would attract more teachers,as it is state teachers are over worked and their schools underfunded,thanks to the Tory cuts on spending and the lack of kudos of the teaching profession in the UK state sector.

[landsurfer]

If the same sort of working conditions were available within state schools they would attract more teachers,as it is state teachers are over worked and their schools underfunded,thanks to the Tory cuts on spending and the lack of kudos of the teaching profession in the UK state sector.

AAAGGGHHH ... But the bl**dy tories have not been in power for the last 200 years .....

Labour contributed to the current situation.
Conservatives contributed to the current situation.
Lib Dem contributed to the current situation.
UKIP contributed to the current situation.
SNP contributed to the current situation.
Et Al.

And so on and so on ......

Why do you only blame one party .... surely your are not blind to reality and history !!!!!

[reohn2]

If the same sort of working conditions were available within state schools they would attract more teachers,as it is state teachers are over worked and their schools underfunded,thanks to the Tory cuts on spending and the lack of kudos of the teaching profession in the UK state sector.

AAAGGGHHH ... But the bl**dy tories have not been in power for the last 200 years .....

Labour contributed to the current situation.
Conservatives contributed to the current situation.
Lib Dem contributed to the current situation.
UKIP contributed to the current situation.
SNP contributed to the current situation.
Et Al.

And so on and so on ......

Why do you only blame one party .... surely your are not blind to reality and history !!!!!

No I'm not blind,and if you look up thread you'll see that.
The fact is we are where we are and the Tories are seeking to make matters worse not better.