** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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blackbike
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Joined: 11 Jul 2009, 3:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby blackbike » 19 May 2017, 3:41pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
It is a democratic parliament made up of diverse nations and cultures trying to improve the lot of all those citizens.
It is not us and them but all in it together.IMHO.



All our opinions, even Gina Miller's and those of not so humble people eager to tell us how clever and educated they are compared to the rest of us, are as humble as each other's in a one person one vote system.

Most people don't share your idealistic view of the EU parliament.

That's why we are leaving the EU.

It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong in your humble opinion because in this country we decide things by majority votes in parliament, and our MPs voted to leave the EU after taking our aggregated, humbly offered advice on the matter.

Psamathe
Posts: 6916
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 19 May 2017, 5:55pm

blackbike wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
It is a democratic parliament made up of diverse nations and cultures trying to improve the lot of all those citizens.
It is not us and them but all in it together.IMHO.



All our opinions, even Gina Miller's and those of not so humble people eager to tell us how clever and educated they are compared to the rest of us, are as humble as each other's in a one person one vote system.

Most people don't share your idealistic view of the EU parliament.

That's why we are leaving the EU.

It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong in your humble opinion because in this country we decide things by majority votes in parliament, and our MPs voted to leave the EU after taking our aggregated, humbly offered advice on the matter.


And I've seen no evidence that we decided to leave the EU because people were not happy with the EU Parliament. I thought it was because we wanted an extra £350m a week for the NHS (which Blobby still stands by) ... oh except apparently it's because we want an end to Freedom of Movement (MayBot's current theory) ... except every politician seems to be inventing new reasons to justify their "policy of the moment". I only got one question on my ballot Leave or Remain; no questions as to why, what aspects were wrong, etc. so how people are now telling us why we decided to leave seems weird.

Ian

pete75
Posts: 7759
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 19 May 2017, 8:06pm

blackbike wrote:
All our opinions, even Gina Miller's and those of not so humble people eager to tell us how clever and educated they are compared to the rest of us, are as humble as each other's in a one person one vote system.



If you mean Brexiters being described as less educated then it's a keen advocate of Brexit, Lord Ashcroft, who is saying it. He surveyed over 12,000 people after the referendum vote and found

"A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave."

The majority of those actually working voted to remain.
"A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension."

One bizarre finding was that 4% of Ukip supporters voted remain.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/

sjs
Posts: 549
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 10:08pm
Location: Hitchin

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby sjs » 20 May 2017, 12:15pm

pete75 wrote:
blackbike wrote:
All our opinions, even Gina Miller's and those of not so humble people eager to tell us how clever and educated they are compared to the rest of us, are as humble as each other's in a one person one vote system.



If you mean Brexiters being described as less educated then it's a keen advocate of Brexit, Lord Ashcroft, who is saying it. He surveyed over 12,000 people after the referendum vote and found

"A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave."

The majority of those actually working voted to remain.
"A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension."

One bizarre finding was that 4% of Ukip supporters voted remain.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/



I found http://www.statsguy.co.uk/brexit-voting-and-education/ an interesting read.

Boyd
Posts: 450
Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Boyd » 23 May 2017, 12:02pm

Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:


So come on guys give us some better reasons why leaving is still a good idea? Rather than the bear baiting.


Democracy.

You mean an end to elections for MEPs (using a more democratically representative systems); you mean having a PM who will use taxpayers money to fight through the courts to avoid allowing our democratically elected Parliament having involvement in the biggest decision the UK has faced in decades.

People keep talking about the EU being "un-democratic" but I get to vote, UK gets its say in legislative bodies, etc. yet those favouring leave still just quote "democratic" without identifying where the EU fails in democratic accountability.

Ian

We don't have to. We had a vote. It doesn't matter wherever the EU is democratic or not, we are leaving. That is called democracy.

Boyd
Posts: 450
Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Boyd » 23 May 2017, 12:16pm

pete75 wrote:
Boyd wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:


So come on guys give us some better reasons why leaving is still a good idea? Rather than the bear baiting.


Democracy.


And your point is? Agreed it's a reason but I think PDQ was asking for good reasons i.e. any benefits of leaving which may overcome the potential pitfalls.

At the moment we hear constantly hear of what will happen with no evidence to support, obviously. The effects on the economy up to now is minimal if not beneficial. To me the most important thing is that the supply and demand for low paid jobs will fall. In the past this much immigration managed with very low immigration. Why do we need it now. High immigration leads to low productivity. Low immigration leads to greater mechanization this always leads to higher wages.

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Paulatic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Paulatic » 23 May 2017, 3:32pm

Boyd wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Boyd wrote:
Democracy.


And your point is? Agreed it's a reason but I think PDQ was asking for good reasons i.e. any benefits of leaving which may overcome the potential pitfalls.

At the moment we hear constantly hear of what will happen with no evidence to support, obviously. The effects on the economy up to now is minimal if not beneficial. To me the most important thing is that the supply and demand for low paid jobs will fall. In the past this much immigration managed with very low immigration. Why do we need it now. High immigration leads to low productivity. Low immigration leads to greater mechanization this always leads to higher wages.


Are you sure?
I would have thought higher wages incentative more mechanisation.
More mechanisation usually means less jobs available.
if you just stand still you can never lose your way

https://stcleve.wordpress.com/2017/03/0 ... ng-gov-uk/

BrianFox
Posts: 571
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby BrianFox » 23 May 2017, 3:49pm

More mechanisation usually means less jobs available.


This is a controversial subject. Less jobs of the specific task automated, for sure, but perhaps not less jobs in the whole economy.

Certainly if it were a simple linear relationship, we'd almost all be unemployed, as the degree of mechanisation or automation now is far, far higher than it was even 20 years ago, let alone 100 years ago.

Wiki has a good article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technolog ... employment

Psamathe
Posts: 6916
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 23 May 2017, 3:53pm

Boyd wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:
Democracy.

You mean an end to elections for MEPs (using a more democratically representative systems); you mean having a PM who will use taxpayers money to fight through the courts to avoid allowing our democratically elected Parliament having involvement in the biggest decision the UK has faced in decades.

People keep talking about the EU being "un-democratic" but I get to vote, UK gets its say in legislative bodies, etc. yet those favouring leave still just quote "democratic" without identifying where the EU fails in democratic accountability.

Ian

We don't have to. We had a vote. It doesn't matter wherever the EU is democratic or not, we are leaving. That is called democracy.

You raised "Democracy" as an issue and then seem to reject its relevance!

Ian

Boyd
Posts: 450
Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Boyd » 23 May 2017, 5:29pm

Paulatic wrote:
Boyd wrote:
pete75 wrote:
And your point is? Agreed it's a reason but I think PDQ was asking for good reasons i.e. any benefits of leaving which may overcome the potential pitfalls.

At the moment we hear constantly hear of what will happen with no evidence to support, obviously. The effects on the economy up to now is minimal if not beneficial. To me the most important thing is that the supply and demand for low paid jobs will fall. In the past this much immigration managed with very low immigration. Why do we need it now. High immigration leads to low productivity. Low immigration leads to greater mechanization this always leads to higher wages.


Are you sure?
I would have thought higher wages incentative more mechanisation.
More mechanisation usually means less jobs available.

If that were true by now nobody would be in work. The industrial revolution would have wiped out all jobs instead it created new products and higher wages which allowed people to buy the new products. Following the industrial revolution we had the transport revolution and now we are in the computer revolution.

Boyd
Posts: 450
Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Boyd » 23 May 2017, 5:30pm

Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:
Psamathe wrote:You mean an end to elections for MEPs (using a more democratically representative systems); you mean having a PM who will use taxpayers money to fight through the courts to avoid allowing our democratically elected Parliament having involvement in the biggest decision the UK has faced in decades.

People keep talking about the EU being "un-democratic" but I get to vote, UK gets its say in legislative bodies, etc. yet those favouring leave still just quote "democratic" without identifying where the EU fails in democratic accountability.

Ian

We don't have to. We had a vote. It doesn't matter wherever the EU is democratic or not, we are leaving. That is called democracy.

You raised "Democracy" as an issue and then seem to reject its relevance!

Ian

I didn't

blackbike
Posts: 2330
Joined: 11 Jul 2009, 3:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby blackbike » 23 May 2017, 6:21pm

Boyd wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:We don't have to. We had a vote. It doesn't matter wherever the EU is democratic or not, we are leaving. That is called democracy.

You raised "Democracy" as an issue and then seem to reject its relevance!

Ian

I didn't


I agree.

As you say, whether the EU is democratic or not is irrelevant.

Whatever the truth about the EU's democracy, we are free to leave it whenever we want.

And we have chosen, via our democratically elected parliament, to leave.

Democracy in action.

Boyd
Posts: 450
Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Boyd » 23 May 2017, 7:06pm

Psamathe wrote:I only got one question on my ballot Leave or Remain; no questions as to why, what aspects were wrong, etc. so how people are now telling us why we decided to leave seems weird.

How many option did you want on the ballot paper? Leave, Remain or ?
As you are well aware people voted for many reasons to leave the EU. I was surprised to find out my brother who works in the city voted to leave. He is sick of the ludicrous and pointless EU regulations that makes his job so difficult. Sorry cant define exactly what he does. Something to do with sueing banks and a financial adviser.

Psamathe
Posts: 6916
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 23 May 2017, 8:46pm

Boyd wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I only got one question on my ballot Leave or Remain; no questions as to why, what aspects were wrong, etc. so how people are now telling us why we decided to leave seems weird.

How many option did you want on the ballot paper? Leave, Remain or ?
As you are well aware people voted for many reasons to leave the EU. I was surprised to find out my brother who works in the city voted to leave. He is sick of the ludicrous and pointless EU regulations that makes his job so difficult. Sorry cant define exactly what he does. Something to do with sueing banks and a financial adviser.

Our politicians keep telling us e.g. "we voted to end Freedom of Movement" - yet I was never asked about Freedom of Movement. Our politicians keep telling us we voted to leave the EEA yet I was only asked about leaving the EU no mention of the EEA, etc.

We voted to leave the EU. On top of that our politicians are telling us we voted for many other things that were never asked - hence my point about my ballot paper being faulty because I never got the option to vote to keep or end e.g. Freedom of Movement.

Ian

Boyd
Posts: 450
Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Boyd » 23 May 2017, 9:30pm

Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I only got one question on my ballot Leave or Remain; no questions as to why, what aspects were wrong, etc. so how people are now telling us why we decided to leave seems weird.

How many option did you want on the ballot paper? Leave, Remain or ?
As you are well aware people voted for many reasons to leave the EU. I was surprised to find out my brother who works in the city voted to leave. He is sick of the ludicrous and pointless EU regulations that makes his job so difficult. Sorry cant define exactly what he does. Something to do with sueing banks and a financial adviser.

Our politicians keep telling us e.g. "we voted to end Freedom of Movement" - yet I was never asked about Freedom of Movement. Our politicians keep telling us we voted to leave the EEA yet I was only asked about leaving the EU no mention of the EEA, etc.

We voted to leave the EU. On top of that our politicians are telling us we voted for many other things that were never asked - hence my point about my ballot paper being faulty because I never got the option to vote to keep or end e.g. Freedom of Movement.

Ian

Again feel free to tell me of all the option you think should have been on the ballot paper. As you know doubt voted for remain then all the other possible options are irrelevant.


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