** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Psamathe
Posts: 7648
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 13 Sep 2017, 1:24pm

mercalia wrote:so Junker has learnt nothing from the UK leaving the EU - back to normal and Farage maybe for the first time has a point - The EU hasnt learnt anything, just shrugs it shoulders.

"But, speaking in the same debate, ex-UKIP leader Nigel Farage said the EU had "learnt nothing" from Brexit and was ploughing "full steam ahead"."

That more than half those in the UK who voted, voted to leave the EU, should have meant a great deal of soul searching amongst the eurocrats - hasnt it seems.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41252653

I think you are interpreting what he said to support your existing beliefs. You could look at it from the other perspective in that the EU if not facing the crisis Farange et. al. hoped would happen, is not facing falling apart. In fact most reports suggest the support for the EU across member state electorates is now stronger than before the UK referendum. From friends in France, Brexit is not big news, they recognise the UK is leaving and would prefer the UK just get on with going and leave them to get on as part of the EU. We are getting it every day so it is prominent but as far as I can tell it's a minor thing in the EU. We are not as important or crucial as we would like to believe.

Why should 52% of one euro-sceptic nation voting to leave send the EU into more soul searching and why should we care if it does not. We are leaving so why should we expect the EU to suddenly make radical changes to reflect our scepticism over their vision?

Ian

mercalia
Posts: 6665
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 13 Sep 2017, 2:07pm

Psamathe wrote:
mercalia wrote:so Junker has learnt nothing from the UK leaving the EU - back to normal and Farage maybe for the first time has a point - The EU hasnt learnt anything, just shrugs it shoulders.

"But, speaking in the same debate, ex-UKIP leader Nigel Farage said the EU had "learnt nothing" from Brexit and was ploughing "full steam ahead"."

That more than half those in the UK who voted, voted to leave the EU, should have meant a great deal of soul searching amongst the eurocrats - hasnt it seems.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41252653

I think you are interpreting what he said to support your existing beliefs. You could look at it from the other perspective in that the EU if not facing the crisis Farange et. al. hoped would happen, is not facing falling apart. In fact most reports suggest the support for the EU across member state electorates is now stronger than before the UK referendum. From friends in France, Brexit is not big news, they recognise the UK is leaving and would prefer the UK just get on with going and leave them to get on as part of the EU. We are getting it every day so it is prominent but as far as I can tell it's a minor thing in the EU. We are not as important or crucial as we would like to believe.

Why should 52% of one euro-sceptic nation voting to leave send the EU into more soul searching and why should we care if it does not. We are leaving so why should we expect the EU to suddenly make radical changes to reflect our scepticism over their vision?

Ian


what beliefs? I wish we werent leaving but when I see or hear who runs the show and their typical autorcratic viewpoint that the continent is known for, is understandable.

as a net contributor and a big one? So the populist anti-EU voice has reformed? I dont think so, just gone quiet for a time, waiting to see the Brexit result I would think.

Psamathe
Posts: 7648
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 13 Sep 2017, 2:07pm

Another aspect of Brexit it seems the UK is seeking to exploit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dsei-2017-michael-fallon-uk-arms-trade-increase-brexit-defence-secretary-yemen-saudi-arabia-a7944686.html wrote:Michael Fallon outlines vision for increasing UK arms trade after Brexit
...
Defence Secretary tells arms fair increased conflict and terror pushing demand 'through the roof
...
Addressing the world’s largest arms fair in London, Sir Michael Fallon outlined his vision for the UK to take a bigger share of the international defence market and claimed demand was going “through the roof” because of increasing war and terror.

Not something I welcome, UK providing to tools for further death and destruction, destroying the lives of innocent civilians, etc. whilst at home we enjoy the profits from such increased trade ...

Ian

broadway
Posts: 695
Joined: 9 Mar 2010, 1:49pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby broadway » 13 Sep 2017, 2:22pm

mjr wrote:
mercalia wrote:I read one article from the BBC News website ( or was it the Guardian ) ( you lot all read it on Twitter 2 days ago I suppose ) that the EU might be more conciliatory as when we leave 80% of NATO's forces in Europe will then no longer be part of the EU at a time when Russia is rattling sabres. Must say the number surprised me - is France still not in Nato?

The author sounds clueless because NATO has no forces of its own. More detail on how this treaty organisation works at http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_50316.htm

The UK's total armed forces are currently fewer than Portugal and although our active military is larger than Portugal's (most countries have larger reserves, plus we don't have a paramilitary force), Italy, France and Germany all have more active military personnel at the moment.

It may all depend what they mean by "NATO's forces in Europe" - I considered that maybe they meant forces contributed to the only current NATO operation in Europe, KFOR in Kosovo, but that's not currently true, as the UK only has one token member there, while Italy has over 2000. So I don't know.


Probably from garbled from this which puts rather a different light on it as it is nothing to do with forces in Europe. I also haven't been able to find it on the BBC or Guardian websites. Must be the Brexiter goggles getting in the way of reading.

"And the US and Canada are not members of the EU and I don’t believe that they will be in the near future either, so meaning that, especially when the UK leaves the EU, 80% of NATO’s defence expenditure will be non –EU."

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_146710.htm

As the US expenditure dwarfs the rest it would have been good of him to quite the current figure. The UK is around 6% of the expenditure.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 928
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 13 Sep 2017, 6:32pm

Psamathe wrote:Another aspect of Brexit it seems the UK is seeking to exploit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dsei-2017-michael-fallon-uk-arms-trade-increase-brexit-defence-secretary-yemen-saudi-arabia-a7944686.html wrote:Michael Fallon outlines vision for increasing UK arms trade after Brexit
...
Defence Secretary tells arms fair increased conflict and terror pushing demand 'through the roof
...
Addressing the world’s largest arms fair in London, Sir Michael Fallon outlined his vision for the UK to take a bigger share of the international defence market and claimed demand was going “through the roof” because of increasing war and terror.

Not something I welcome, UK providing to tools for further death and destruction, destroying the lives of innocent civilians, etc. whilst at home we enjoy the profits from such increased trade ...

Ian

I agree Ian.

Micheal Fallon not fit for office saying such things.
Liam Fox is an outright crook when it comes to arms sales. He has form.
Finger in the pie jobs.
It's just a tragedy.
Defence Phooe!
It's Offence! (ive)

I am very saddened.

reohn2
Posts: 27638
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 13 Sep 2017, 6:48pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Another aspect of Brexit it seems the UK is seeking to exploit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dsei-2017-michael-fallon-uk-arms-trade-increase-brexit-defence-secretary-yemen-saudi-arabia-a7944686.html wrote:Michael Fallon outlines vision for increasing UK arms trade after Brexit
...
Defence Secretary tells arms fair increased conflict and terror pushing demand 'through the roof
...
Addressing the world’s largest arms fair in London, Sir Michael Fallon outlined his vision for the UK to take a bigger share of the international defence market and claimed demand was going “through the roof” because of increasing war and terror.

Not something I welcome, UK providing to tools for further death and destruction, destroying the lives of innocent civilians, etc. whilst at home we enjoy the profits from such increased trade ...

Ian

I agree Ian.

Micheal Fallon not fit for office saying such things.
Liam Fox is an ouright crook when it comes to arms sales. He has form.
Finger in the pie jobs.
It's just a tragedy.
Defence Phooe!
It's Offence! (ive)

I am very saddened.


+1,
But hey we gotta make money somehow so why not supply despots with arms and then later invade them,which means,you guessed it,more arm sales to fight despots.
And so the merry go round continues.
These people are despicable creeps,but then they're Tories so what can you expect :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

mercalia
Posts: 6665
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 14 Sep 2017, 5:53pm

sad isnt it- some celebs or has beens will do anything to advertise themselves - here its Ringo Starrs chance to exploit Brexit to publicise his latest album ( anyone here cares?)

He is as bad as the has been 007 guy who pontificates about Scottish Independance yet lives some where else :roll:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41266184/ringo-starr-says-people-voted-for-brexit-so-get-on-with-it

brynpoeth
Posts: 1841
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby brynpoeth » 15 Sep 2017, 2:38pm

Who is Ringo Starr, please?

..

Armaments is an enormous industry in Britain, France, Germany, it's the economy stupid :cry:

With a bit of luck most of the weapons will never be used and will be scrapped/updated in a few years, what about the new aircraft carrier, not sure if it is FFP, fit for purpose
Cycling? Of course, but it's far better on a Gillott.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 13540
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 15 Sep 2017, 2:59pm

brynpoeth wrote:Armaments is an enormous industry in Britain, France, Germany, it's the economy stupid :cry:

Norway and Sweden, too. :(
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

mercalia
Posts: 6665
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 15 Sep 2017, 4:37pm

brynpoeth wrote:Who is Ringo Starr, please?

..

Armaments is an enormous industry in Britain, France, Germany, it's the economy stupid :cry:

With a bit of luck most of the weapons will never be used and will be scrapped/updated in a few years, what about the new aircraft carrier, not sure if it is FFP, fit for purpose



no it aint - runs on petrol dont it? should have been nuclear powered like all the US ones so could stay at sea for long periods without the need to go to a petrol station to fill up: I can see it staying in port as the fuel costs too much :roll: ?

BrianFox
Posts: 658
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby BrianFox » 15 Sep 2017, 4:43pm

The purpose of the carriers were to provide a photo opportunity for politicians, an ego boost for admirals and jobs for Scottish ship yard workers.

They're doing just fine.

pete75
Posts: 8296
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 23 Sep 2017, 1:05pm

So remaining in the single market, paying into EU funds and free movement for two years after we've left the EU. What's the betting it may be extended time and again. It'd satisfy the referendum result because we'd officially have left the EU and satisfy the remainers because nothing would have really changed. Isn't that what's called a win-win?

Psamathe
Posts: 7648
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 23 Sep 2017, 3:07pm

pete75 wrote:So remaining in the single market, paying into EU funds and free movement for two years after we've left the EU. What's the betting it may be extended time and again. It'd satisfy the referendum result because we'd officially have left the EU and satisfy the remainers because nothing would have really changed. Isn't that what's called a win-win?

The "transition period" is not a "given". EU has to agree to it and given May has a "red line" about the ECJ after March 2019, will the EU agree to a transition period without the ECJ. And will the EU agree to a transition period where we start "tweaking" Freedom of Movement for our convenience. And given that the EU are seeking long term residence rights for EU citizens from the date Freedom of Movement ends (previously March 2019) this would then be extended by 2 years so any EU citizen moving to UK before the end of the transition period would have ongoing rights to remain. etc., etc.

I suspect May has overlooked that a "transition period" is not a right under Article 50 (or any other treaty) but has to be granted by the EU and thus has to be seen as being in the EU's interests.

EDIT: And of course if we stay "things as they are" for a further 2 years "transition period" we will be unable to negotiate any other trade deals for that time! EU are unlikely to allow us to cherry pick the benefits we want and the obligations we don't want.

I think May still has something of a fight on her hands.

And the really big risk in this being ... we might get Farange going back into politics (rumours are already floating about negotiations for him to return to leading UKIP).

Ian

pete75
Posts: 8296
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 23 Sep 2017, 4:32pm

Psamathe wrote:
pete75 wrote:So remaining in the single market, paying into EU funds and free movement for two years after we've left the EU. What's the betting it may be extended time and again. It'd satisfy the referendum result because we'd officially have left the EU and satisfy the remainers because nothing would have really changed. Isn't that what's called a win-win?

The "transition period" is not a "given". EU has to agree to it and given May has a "red line" about the ECJ after March 2019, will the EU agree to a transition period without the ECJ. And will the EU agree to a transition period where we start "tweaking" Freedom of Movement for our convenience. And given that the EU are seeking long term residence rights for EU citizens from the date Freedom of Movement ends (previously March 2019) this would then be extended by 2 years so any EU citizen moving to UK before the end of the transition period would have ongoing rights to remain. etc., etc.

I suspect May has overlooked that a "transition period" is not a right under Article 50 (or any other treaty) but has to be granted by the EU and thus has to be seen as being in the EU's interests.

EDIT: And of course if we stay "things as they are" for a further 2 years "transition period" we will be unable to negotiate any other trade deals for that time! EU are unlikely to allow us to cherry pick the benefits we want and the obligations we don't want.

I think May still has something of a fight on her hands.

And the really big risk in this being ... we might get Farange going back into politics (rumours are already floating about negotiations for him to return to leading UKIP).

Ian


At best Britain will get the same trade deals with other countries as we already have with the EU - why do you think we'll get better ones?

If May really wants the transition period she'll agree to whatever is needed to get it. She's already starting to relent on the ECJ. You may dislike the ECJ but to my mind it's a good thing have a supra national court which is not controlled by the government of any one country.

The extra two years may well be a disappointment you but you'll just have to lump it if it happens and also consider the possibility it could be extended indefinitely.
Last edited by pete75 on 23 Sep 2017, 10:08pm, edited 1 time in total.

mercalia
Posts: 6665
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 23 Sep 2017, 5:39pm

looks very much as we are looking for a Pay-As-You-Go deal rather than the subscription model we have at the moment :lol: Mrs May probably got the idea from looking at her smartphone providers website :?