** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Psamathe]

Growth and trade can be very undesirable

I spotted some lentil crisps in the food store, the ingredients are listed in dozens of languages (48% lentils), they are produced in Leicester and a distributor for NZ is listed
So containers full of crisp packs full of air are being transported stupendous distances (or for all I know being flown)

Surely crisps can be produced down there

Which is something that confuses me about the supposed importance of "Trade" these days. We send them crisps we make whilst they send us crisps they make. I can see trade is important for some things (e.g. some countries have resources not available to others, some have climates necessary for certain produce, etc.) but much of this "trade" seems to be us buying things we can make ourselves whilst selling things to others that they can make themselves.

As with car manufacture in Europe, about how parts for each car move across multiple European borders before getting anywhere near a finished vehicle. We (in the UK) could carry out all those processes, just as Germany could or France could, etc.

So I them start thinking about "economy of scale" (more about profitability) and cost of labour (more about profitability). I can see how in some sectors where e.g. the UK cannot be self sufficient (e.g. food and land area) so we have to import and thus export but I do wonder if "trade" and become "The Emperor's New Clothes" and has become the unnecessary be and end-all of far more than really needed by society.

Ian

[kwackers]

Growth and trade can be very undesirable

I spotted some lentil crisps in the food store, the ingredients are listed in dozens of languages (48% lentils), they are produced in Leicester and a distributor for NZ is listed
So containers full of crisp packs full of air are being transported stupendous distances (or for all I know being flown)

Surely crisps can be produced down there

Which is something that confuses me about the supposed importance of "Trade" these days. We send them crisps we make whilst they send us crisps they make. I can see trade is important for some things (e.g. some countries have resources not available to others, some have climates necessary for certain produce, etc.) but much of this "trade" seems to be us buying things we can make ourselves whilst selling things to others that they can make themselves.

As with car manufacture in Europe, about how parts for each car move across multiple European borders before getting anywhere near a finished vehicle. We (in the UK) could carry out all those processes, just as Germany could or France could, etc.

So I them start thinking about "economy of scale" (more about profitability) and cost of labour (more about profitability). I can see how in some sectors where e.g. the UK cannot be self sufficient (e.g. food and land area) so we have to import and thus export but I do wonder if "trade" and become "The Emperor's New Clothes" and has become the unnecessary be and end-all of far more than really needed by society.

Ian

Car parts - I suspect the way cars are made these days it makes them a lot cheaper to make the various bits all over the world.
Crisps - bit harder to defend but they're pretty light and they probably use them as 'bubble wrap' for the car parts...

[al_yrpal]

Its about technology and the plant to manufacture specialised components. The ultra competitive have the best of both. And then there is the matter of labour costs.

Dublin Bay prawns caught in our northern waters, landed at Malaig then shipped to Vietnam to be de-shelled and shipped back here for distrubution!

Al

[reohn2]

Its about technology and the plant to manufacture specialised components. The ultra competitive have the best of both. And then there is the matter of labour costs.

Dublin Bay prawns caught in our northern waters, landed at Malaig then shipped to Vietnam to be de-shelled and shipped back here for distrubution!

Al

Yep,there's something wrong somewhere

[Vorpal]

Like on the 'do you love to drive' poll thread, the real costs aren't accounted for. The cost to ship stuff to Asia and back is heavily subsidised by governments who have sold us on trade=growth and is therefore GOOD.

Somewhere, somehow, we need to account for the loss of natural resources and the desctruction of the environment.

Of course, the companies who engage in all of this don't want a real accounting, and they spend billions every year lobbying governments, and international organisations to ensure that it stays the way it is. Many of them likely wouldn't be profitable without hidden subsidies.

[PH]

A positive view of what 'might' happen by a remainer...

UK growth upgrade could 'dwarf' Brexit hit - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090

Lets hope he is right..

Al

He was certainly right about some things

He said that the "supporters of brexit are going to be like the cat with the cream. They're like 'there you go, told you so', which of course is ridiculous".

[Cyril Haearn]

The UK could be self-sufficient in food if marginal land were used and less meat eaten

NZ has too many sheep, maybe people could be imported to eat them down there

Come to think of it, many people who are fed up with GB/Europe might like NZ, no need to learn a new language to live there

[Psamathe]

So the truth about a "No deal is Better than a Bad Deal" is starting to emerge

Jeremy Hunt admits EU cancer drugs will not be available in Britain if Brexit talks break down
...
Jeremy Hunt has admitted that EU cancer drugs may not be available to British patients after Brexit, describing the risk as “uniquely damaging”.

The flow of some medicines would be cut off if the withdrawal negotiations break down, the Health Secretary acknowledged – echoing fears raised by the pharmaceutical industry.

Ian

[PDQ Mobile]

The UK could be self-sufficient in food if marginal land were used and less meat eaten

NZ has too many sheep, maybe people could be imported to eat them down there

Come to think of it, many people who are fed up with GB/Europe might like NZ, no need to learn a new language to live there

Indeed a lot do go there.
And some come back.
I think as you do, I feel more at home in Europe. Languages notwithstanding!

The point about the UK possibly becoming self sufficient in food.
Personally I doubt it any more. There was a time maybe.
If you grow vegetables on marginal land they will cost a lot more, that's a given.
And then there are various points that could be made about vast tracts of the UK being only suitable for stock rearing.
Wales is a classic example. And it is that stock rearing that maintains much of the character of the landscape that one sees.
Not that I would be against more upland reverting to woodland here and there. But you can't eat wood, though it is very useful.

[kwackers]

Not that I would be against more upland reverting to woodland here and there. But you can't eat wood, though it is very useful.

Isn't that conversion from woodland to upland part of the reason we get more flooding than we used to?
Woodland is particularly good at handling rain, releasing it slowly rather than having it flood down the hills.

[reohn2]

Not that I would be against more upland reverting to woodland here and there. But you can't eat wood, though it is very useful.

Isn't that conversion from woodland to upland part of the reason we get more flooding than we used to?
Woodland is particularly good at handling rain, releasing it slowly rather than having it flood down the hills.

And taking what little topsoil there is with it.

[PDQ Mobile]

Not that I would be against more upland reverting to woodland here and there. But you can't eat wood, though it is very useful.

Isn't that conversion from woodland to upland part of the reason we get more flooding than we used to?
Woodland is particularly good at handling rain, releasing it slowly rather than having it flood down the hills.

Yes among other benefits, like the Lynx!
And there's woods and woods!

A lot of Wales has been upland grazing for some millennia though, and it would be my guess that it is actually more forested now than for some couple of thousand years because of new and extensive coniferous planting.
A lot of native woodland is sadly in a very precarious state though, with little regeneration through grazing, mostly sheep.

And then there's Ash dieback

But it's thread drift, stick with Brexit.

[al_yrpal]

The UK could be self-sufficient in food if marginal land were used and less meat eaten

NZ has too many sheep, maybe people could be imported to eat them down there

Come to think of it, many people who are fed up with GB/Europe might like NZ, no need to learn a new language to live there

Reading Captain Cook's biography at the moment. He saw lots of evidence of the NZ Maoris eating each other, sounds like a good strategy to solve the overcrowding problem (along with a nice bottle of Chianti...)

Al

[Cyril Haearn]

The UK could be self-sufficient in food if marginal land were used and less meat eaten

NZ has too many sheep, maybe people could be imported to eat them down there

Come to think of it, many people who are fed up with GB/Europe might like NZ, no need to learn a new language to live there

Reading Captain Cook's biography at the moment. He saw lots of evidence of the NZ Maoris eating each other, sounds like a good strategy to solve the overcrowding problem (along with a nice bottle of Chianti...)

Al

Oh dear, I fear it was customary to kill and eat ones enemies, remember Robinson Crusoe, that was scary

Let them eat porridge and parsnips. And chicken once a year!

[Vorpal]

Thank cod! at long last, this thread has descended into puns.

+1 but:
Should one not write "ascended into puns"?

Yes, it should have been ascended.