** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 14 Sep 2018, 4:24pm

to join the EU as a separate country, and thereby lose true independence


It's simple Mick. Most Scottish people do not regard being in the EU as losing independence.

I don't regard Britain being in the EU as losing independence.

You have a different view.

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 14 Sep 2018, 4:32pm

Exactly!
That's why we had a referendum!

The majority of voters voted to leave.
If you voted remain, you were in a minority.
Mick F. Cornwall

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 14 Sep 2018, 4:35pm

Mick,

I posted that to answer your question as to why Scottish voters might want both independence and to be in the EU. I wasn't making any point about what we should do now.

On that, it seems pretty obvious to me - we only just voted to leave so we should only just leave. ie the Norway option. I'm not sure why the brexiters feel they have a mandate for the extreme positions that have been touted ever since the vote.

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 14 Sep 2018, 4:54pm

In that, we agree.
I'm happy to be WITH the EU, but not IN IT so hence, I voted out. It doesn't mean that the EU are bad, just that I don't want to be in it, just work with it.

I'm just happy that we didn't join the Euro. Mentioned this before, but Greece had the oldest currency in the world with the Drachma. The oldest in-use currency in the world, and overnight without a vote, they adopted the Euro.
Mick F. Cornwall

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 14 Sep 2018, 5:21pm

Yes Mick, it doesnt make sense does it? Scotland would be an even smaller entity with respect to the EU, about 1% instead of 8% of the UK? Its becoming free of the English that seems to be the SNP's objective regardless of the unknown consequences? Lots of discrete areas of the UK voted Leave or Remain. Some of my Scottish friends have said they will move their business HQs to England if the SNP succeeds. They think it will become highly business unfriendly.

Al
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 14 Sep 2018, 5:23pm

They think it will become highly business unfriendly.


Oh the irony!

1gunsalute
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 1gunsalute » 14 Sep 2018, 7:39pm

al_yrpal wrote:Yes Mick, it doesnt make sense does it? Scotland would be an even smaller entity with respect to the EU, about 1% instead of 8% of the UK?

And yet Scotland has almost zero influence over UK decisions, whereas as an independent nation member of EU it would have more influence over the EU thanks to the wonders of qualified majority voting. And the Scottish parliament would take control over all the things that UK currently decides for it.

Hobbs1951
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Hobbs1951 » 15 Sep 2018, 6:02am

Mick F wrote:Most posters on this thread are Remain voters and they can list all the good things the EU has done. Leave voters don't know the future, and neither do Remain voters. It's all speculation and a wager plus hot air and gas.


The consequences of leaving the EU are already being seen and felt within the UK economy, and it has nothing to do with how any individual on this forum or in the wider public voted.

The UK government failed pre and post referendum to understand/calculate the impact of leaving on the UK economy, so I don't see how many on this forum can.

John.

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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 15 Sep 2018, 8:47am

Hobbs1951 wrote:
Mick F wrote:Most posters on this thread are Remain voters and they can list all the good things the EU has done. Leave voters don't know the future, and neither do Remain voters. It's all speculation and a wager plus hot air and gas.


The consequences of leaving the EU are already being seen and felt within the UK economy, and it has nothing to do with how any individual on this forum or in the wider public voted.

The UK government failed pre and post referendum to understand/calculate the impact of leaving on the UK economy, so I don't see how many on this forum can.

John.


Quite so - I never understand how the pontificators for and against can kid themselves that they understand "the economics" of, well, anything since the arrangements are convoluted, complex, vast and unpredictable. It isn't just a joke that "economics is one rung down the list of human bodies-of-understanding from astrology".

The wee discussion about Malta and its buses is a good example of how both "sides" will select what are base facts then concoct them, with various correlation-arguments, into a new "fact" of their liking about what the cause of the now worse service is. But correlation is not causation. And there are 59 other factors in play of which we're unaware (except for knowing it's never as simple as A+B = C).

I nearly didn't vote in the referendum, on the grounds that I knew I had no real understanding of the consequences either way. I did vote "stay" in the end because of three factors:

* The leave factions seemed infested by xenophobia, faux-nationalism and racism, which didn't bode well for a future with leavers in power;
* The EU provides a large bloc that has far more clout internationally, on many fronts, than a Little England will have.
* I'm a conservative (small c, not the Party variety) who feels that vast revolutionary changes are far more dangerous than a slow and careful evolution of the status quo.

Do we see the USA states seceding? Do the Leavers want a fragmented Britain - not just Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as separate nations but perhaps also Cornwall, Yorkshire and Greater London? (There are voices who would like that).

The trend of history is to have large socio-political blocs that mesh the parts to do more than the individual parts could ever manage. Fragmentation is the usual precursor to what is generally referred to as a Dark Age - stagnation, regression and poverty, with the small bits predated upon in various wars of acquisition by newly-arising socio-political blocs.

Cugel

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby francovendee » 15 Sep 2018, 9:01am

al_yrpal wrote:Yes Mick, it doesnt make sense does it? Scotland would be an even smaller entity with respect to the EU, about 1% instead of 8% of the UK? Its becoming free of the English that seems to be the SNP's objective regardless of the unknown consequences? Lots of discrete areas of the UK voted Leave or Remain. Some of my Scottish friends have said they will move their business HQs to England if the SNP succeeds. They think it will become highly business unfriendly.

Al

I think your comment about Scottish business HQ moving to the UK is a fair point and likely to happen.

In the same way International business HQ's in the UK are likely to move to mainland Europe after Brexit

JimL
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby JimL » 15 Sep 2018, 9:24am

ambodach wrote:Al-yrpal you are spouting rubbish based on too much Daily Mail and BBC. Yes there is a devolved Parliament in Scotland but Westminster is currently trying to remove most of it’s powers as it runs our public services to a much better standard than England. The SNP do not hate the English which is just sensationalist rubbish. Yes we dislike the Westminster Parliament and their constant condescension and obstruction. For example Scottish SNP MP’s cannot speak to ministers regarding concerns raised by their constituents, only Tories can speak to ministers. We are constantly told we are too poor to look after ourselves. Why is England so desperate to hold on to us if we must be subsidised? The truth is they need our money which is constantly filched. You can make any claims you like but without Scotland,England would currently be even more bankrupt than it is now.
To answer Mick’s point Europe is our biggest market so why split ourselves off. There are claims that England is our big market but that is skewed as our exports travel south through England and get classified as English due to the port of exit.
I could go on for hours but really cannot be bothered responding to condescending and ill informed rubbish.


I shouldn't really respond to condescending and ill informed rubbish but the highlighted sections are just that and yes the SNP do hate the English it is their raison d'etre (they love the French ) and continually denigrate Britain at every opportunity. The good news is 65% of Scots voted against them at the last election.

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 15 Sep 2018, 9:27am

Hobbs1951 wrote:The consequences of leaving the EU are already being seen and felt within the UK economy .......

Not quite right.
The consequences of not knowing the future and knowing what's going to happen is the issue.
Mick F. Cornwall

JimL
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby JimL » 15 Sep 2018, 9:29am

1gunsalute wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Yes Mick, it doesnt make sense does it? Scotland would be an even smaller entity with respect to the EU, about 1% instead of 8% of the UK?

And yet Scotland has almost zero influence over UK decisions, whereas as an independent nation member of EU it would have more influence over the EU thanks to the wonders of qualified majority voting. And the Scottish parliament would take control over all the things that UK currently decides for it.


What nonsense .

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 15 Sep 2018, 9:39am

Mick F wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I thought the majority voted to leave to stop immigration ... sorry, no, for £350m a week extra for the NHS ... sorry no, to "take back control".
Here we go again.

How do you know the majority voted to leave to stop immigration and/or for the fictitious £350M and/or take back control?

I don't which is my my post was trying to highlight some of the many different reasons people apparently voted to leave.

Maybe you should be asking al_yrpal as I was responsing (quoting) their post - which I notice you conveniently edited out to put my post out of contect!.
al_yrpal wrote:... A majority voted to leave it in order to trade more freely across the world and in particular with our pre EU trading partners....
Al


Ian

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 15 Sep 2018, 9:58am

Sorry for that, but I was replying to your statement, not the preamble.

I still maintain that people voted Leave for loads of reasons, so I don't think you can pigeon-hole them all.

Perhaps Remain voters had loads of reasons of wanting to stay, but I would bet they have fewer different reasons. None less valid of course.
Mick F. Cornwall