Extinction Rebellion

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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby roubaixtuesday » 9 Oct 2019, 7:09pm

al_yrpal wrote:What ER want, whatever that actually is, aint going to be easy or popular.

Al


I did take the trouble earlier to answer the question of what XR want. In case you missed it first time around...

Al, XR does not espouse any policy position, but advocates for a citizen's assembly as a democratic means of deciding the best path.

https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/

What do you think we should do about climate change?

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al_yrpal
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby al_yrpal » 9 Oct 2019, 7:25pm

So, what do XR want? No one knows. Who will make up the 'citizens assembly' nutters, or democratically elected people? We have a Parliament that we elected whats wrong with that? ER would be more effective if they espoused clear objectives, as it is its unclear except that they garner attention through disruption which alienates rather than persuades.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby roubaixtuesday » 9 Oct 2019, 7:29pm

al_yrpal wrote:So, what do XR want? No one knows. Who will make up the 'citizens assembly' nutters, or democratically elected people? We have a Parliament that we elected whats wrong with that? ER would be more effective if they espoused clear objectives, as it is its unclear except that they garner attention through disruption which alienates rather than persuades.

Al


Al,

I did helpfully provide a link.

Nevertheless, as clicking on it seems too difficult, here you go:

What is a Citizen’s Assembly?
Citizens’ Assemblies are innovative processes that can empower people, communities and entire countries to make important decisions in a way that is fair and deeply democratic.

The Citizens’ Assembly on Climate and Ecological Justice will bring together ordinary people to investigate, discuss and make recommendations on how to respond to the climate emergency. Similar to jury service, members will be randomly selected from across the country. The process will be designed to ensure that the Assembly reflects the whole country in terms of characteristics such as gender, age, ethnicity, education level and geography. Assembly members will hear balanced information from experts and those most affected by the emergency. Members will speak openly and honestly in small groups with the aid of professional facilitators. Together they will work through their differences and draft and vote on recommendations.

The Citizens’ Assembly will be run by non-governmental organisations under independent oversight. This is the fairest and most powerful way to cut through party politics. It will empower citizens to actually work together and take responsibility for our climate and ecological emergency.

This isn’t pie in the sky – it’s proven practice. Citizens’ Assemblies around the world have shown that ordinary people can understand complex information, weigh the options, and make informed choices. Examples include Ireland, Canada, Australia, Belgium and Poland.

Citizens’ Assemblies are used to address important issues that electoral politics can’t fix on its own. In recent years, Ireland’s Citizens’ Assembly broke the deadlock on two controversial issues: same-sex marriage and abortion. The recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly informed public debate and provided politicians cover to make the necessary changes. A subsequent Citizens’ Assembly on Climate Change produced a series of recommendations that were incorporated into the Irish government’s action plan.

Even the UK Parliament has experimented with Citizens’ Assemblies. For example, the Citizens’ Assembly on Social Care worked with House of Commons Select Committees, and three similar projects are currently running as part of the Innovation in Democracy initiative

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661-Pete
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby 661-Pete » 9 Oct 2019, 7:56pm

al_yrpal wrote:We have a Parliament that we elected whats wrong with that?
You are better than us at answering that, surely, seeing as Brex*it supporters (which presumably include you) have repeatedly denounced Parliament as "traitors" or what-have-you...

But seriously though, I think XR (not "ER" btw - that's the title of a TV series :mrgreen: ) are recognising the fact that our current electoral system is deeply flawed.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

kwackers
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby kwackers » 9 Oct 2019, 8:20pm

al_yrpal wrote:So, what do XR want? No one knows. Who will make up the 'citizens assembly' nutters, or democratically elected people? We have a Parliament that we elected whats wrong with that? ER would be more effective if they espoused clear objectives, as it is its unclear except that they garner attention through disruption which alienates rather than persuades.

Al

The only people they alienate are folk like you who'd never be convinced no matter what someone did.
The point of most protests is to bring awareness and gain support from the rest which in turn is turned into a political advantage.

I'm also pretty sure their demands are well documented but that does require you to type less words than you've just written into Google.

landsurfer
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby landsurfer » 9 Oct 2019, 8:31pm

They want to drag us back to the stoneage !
But obviously that won't apply to their leaders of course, they'll have all the power they want.
The Road Goes On Forever ...

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby roubaixtuesday » 9 Oct 2019, 8:40pm

landsurfer wrote:They want to drag us back to the stoneage !
But obviously that won't apply to their leaders of course, they'll have all the power they want.


A well reasoned and evidenced posting. Thank you.

landsurfer
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby landsurfer » 9 Oct 2019, 10:12pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
landsurfer wrote:They want to drag us back to the stoneage !
But obviously that won't apply to their leaders of course, they'll have all the power they want.


A well reasoned and evidenced posting. Thank you.


Your welcome .. Am I wrong ? Please post your well reasoned and evidenced reply.
The Road Goes On Forever ...

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al_yrpal
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby al_yrpal » 9 Oct 2019, 10:44pm

661-Pete wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:We have a Parliament that we elected whats wrong with that?
You are better than us at answering that, surely, seeing as Brex*it supporters (which presumably include you) have repeatedly denounced Parliament as "traitors" or what-have-you...

But seriously though, I think XR (not "ER" btw - that's the title of a TV series :mrgreen: ) are recognising the fact that our current electoral system is deeply flawed.


Not me Pete, never used that word and I believe everyone is entitled to hold any view they like.

As for the system I agree. I hope the present debacle leads to fundamental reform.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

Tangled Metal
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Tangled Metal » 9 Oct 2019, 10:48pm

How is appointing people for the assemblies democratic? Juries aren't democratic they're supposedly random but I've known people who have been selected for jury service many times yet others who have never been selected throughout their long life. Somehow random seems to mean keep picking people repeatedly.

Democracy is about presenting yourself to a constituency and letting them decide if they want to vote for you based on what information they have about you, your policies, etc.

Appointed bodies are quangos. Not democratic at all. So that's one flaw in that policy and their manifesto.

Their other flaw is simply that most people probably believe action is needed on pollution and climate change but they really don't listen to people who protest by shutting down cities or towns. The message gets lost as a result.

XR doesXR does not espouse any policy position, but advocates for a citizen's assembly as a democratic means of deciding the best path. not espouse any policy position, but advocates for a citizen's assembly as a democratic means of deciding the best path.


No policy position? Does these mean they have no idea of how to achieve what they claim are their goals? Of carbon neutrality by 2025 or 25 years earlier than UK scientists and policy makers advising UK civil service and government say is the earliest that could be achieved is their goal of course.

My doubts over the citizen's assembly I've mentioned earlier.

Basically they've lost my support even if I want a cleaner world with less pollution and climate warming. Their protests have done that for me. Of course that might label me as a right winger and allow my views to be discussed accordingly. If that happens then I'd counter with the opinion that XR is a typical leftie group whose using climate change to attack the establishment and trying to completely change society to their ideals.

Btw they're called extinction rebellion which has initials ER. Technically more right to call them ER than XR.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Oct 2019, 11:10pm

The Andrew Neil Prog this evening featured an interesting exchange with an E R spokesperson towards the end of the show. It made for interesting viewing.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Ben@Forest » 10 Oct 2019, 8:19am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
What is a Citizen’s Assembly?
Citizens’ Assemblies are innovative processes that can empower people, communities and entire countries to make important decisions in a way that is fair and deeply democratic.

The Citizens’ Assembly on Climate and Ecological Justice will bring together ordinary people to investigate, discuss and make recommendations on how to respond to the climate emergency. Similar to jury service, members will be randomly selected from across the country. The process will be designed to ensure that the Assembly reflects the whole country in terms of characteristics such as gender, age, ethnicity, education level and geography. Assembly members will hear balanced information from experts and those most affected by the emergency. Members will speak openly and honestly in small groups with the aid of professional facilitators. Together they will work through their differences and draft and vote on recommendations.


I don't see the benefit of adding another layer of decision making and if it really came to pass l don't think the citizens overall would be as radical as Extinction Rebellion would desire.

Furthermore what if whatever recommendations an assembly came up with conflicted with the manifesto of a just elected government?

Finally there are many lobby groups from Greenpeace, through the National Trust to the British Road Haulage Association. I don't believe a citizens' assembly will understand the various aspects of such organisations as well as the organisations themselves. Lobby groups obviously have self-interests but they understand practicalities as well.

merseymouth
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby merseymouth » 10 Oct 2019, 8:32am

Hi Al :) , Maybe overhead cable electrification may not be appropriate for all lines, especially small rural ones, but Third Rail would certainly work!
Many lines don't need HS2 style transportation, even Merseyrail Lines are third rail, with speeds appropriate for Extra-Urban use.
One flaw in the Franchising process is the tie up with rolling stock providers, trickledown being their bag, but it isn't always right for purpose. Merseyrail currently use leased stock, but the generation in the pipeline, due on rail soon, will be owner stock, designed specifically for the intended service.
The "We've always done it this way" mentality should cease, lets get moving away from Rot Boxes! IGICBBG MM

Tangled Metal
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 Oct 2019, 8:35am

Don't MPs have constituency meetings and surgeries? Aren't they the means to get views of the citizenry? Appointed assemblies could be stacked with a majority containing one POV over another so might not give a fair representation of citizenry opinions.

Every system is flawed. Until you can explain why and how these assemblies work / are able to produce more representative views I'm against them.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Postby roubaixtuesday » 10 Oct 2019, 9:58am

Tangled Metal wrote:Don't MPs have constituency meetings and surgeries? Aren't they the means to get views of the citizenry? Appointed assemblies could be stacked with a majority containing one POV over another so might not give a fair representation of citizenry opinions.

Every system is flawed. Until you can explain why and how these assemblies work / are able to produce more representative views I'm against them.


They have answered your emboldened question:

Similar to jury service, members will be randomly selected from across the country.


Finding less politicised ways forward on difficult subjects has a long history - the "Royal Commission" for instance.

I'm not here supporting XR, just trying to get facts clear.