The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

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pliptrot
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby pliptrot » 8 Nov 2019, 1:31pm

brynpoeth wrote:Right again TM, Scotland negotiating to leave the Union would be chaos :?

But maybe the German federal constitution could be copied? 16 regional parliaments without much real power, just identity
The rich ones help the poor ones :wink:


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Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Tangled Metal » 8 Nov 2019, 1:48pm

Actually I think the Scottish legal system has many positives and if there was ever to be a true union with one parliament, one legal system and one set of laws it could do worse than the Scottish legal system. I believe there's many positives there. However I recognise what I believe to be the "not proven" verdict has a few issues that personally I would not want to be in this hypothetical union.

As you can tell, I have never been comfortable thinking of the union as complete. Two systems of law is not a full union imho. That's before we get into the devolution aspect.

As to our opinions on independence if Scotland. We'll never agree over how prepared the SNP is for it to happen. I believe it's different to Brexit but there's going to be as much complexity in the divorce. If you think it's going to go much cleaner than Brexit then you're a little naive. I don't think you're normally naive but about this you sound like you are or you're being blinkered. I hope this opinion doesn't offend, I mean no offence.

One final point. If Scottish independence does happen, I sincerely hope it goes well for all parties. Nothing would please me more than a nice, quick, clean and amicable process. Well, other than no independence, no devolution as it's happened and a fully equal federal system in place. That federal system imho would be Scotland, northern Ireland, Wales, northern England, Midlands, southwest England and south east England. Each one having equal powers. I believe those nations and regions have significant differences in priorities and needs to need their own devolution. I believe devolution only works in an equal federal system.

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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Paulatic » 8 Nov 2019, 5:13pm

Hi TM,
I’m not sure naive is the right word. :)
Mrs P will tell you I’m the eternal optimist.
With my first vote, aged 23, to join the EU it was naive of me to believe we would change the British culture. The hate of Johnny Foreigner, the bigotry, I even thought the Brits could handle European licensing laws. That was naive I was young.
Now 44 years further on with all those dreams shattered and with a feeling of all that hard work was for nothing as we’ve ended up right back where we started 40+ years ago. Stand where I stand now and see a glimmer of hope. All it needs is optimism and faith in your fellow man to make it work.
Is there a long list of countries which regretted becoming independent?
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Spinners
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Spinners » 8 Nov 2019, 5:20pm

Last night's Question Time from Glasgow was really good and, parking up party politics, I was hugely impressed by the formidable Kirstene Hair. I wish she was our MP instead of the "parachuted in to a safe seat" chap we have.
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ambodach
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby ambodach » 8 Nov 2019, 5:50pm

Kirstene Hair had an earpiece so she was probably being fed lines from somewhere. If you think she is better than your MP them he or she must be really dire.

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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Paulatic » 8 Nov 2019, 6:20pm

ambodach wrote:Kirstene Hair had an earpiece so she was probably being fed lines from somewhere. If you think she is better than your MP them he or she must be really dire.


+1
I’ve seen her performance described as a car crash and she actually said
"Nicola Sturgeon does not speak for Scotland."

If the First Minister of a thrice-elected government of Scotland, Leader of the party with the greatest number of Scottish MPs in Westminster doesn't speak for Scotland then who does? I’ve yet to hear a UK PM speak up for Scotland. Especially the present incumbent voted in with 0.13% of the population.

Seems like she cracked a good joke though but I doubt Janey Godley need worry.
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reohn2
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby reohn2 » 8 Nov 2019, 6:54pm

Paulatic wrote:
ambodach wrote:Kirstene Hair had an earpiece so she was probably being fed lines from somewhere. If you think she is better than your MP them he or she must be really dire.


+1
I’ve seen her performance described as a car crash ........

I think that would be very accurate description.
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Spinners
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Spinners » 8 Nov 2019, 7:28pm

Well, I actually watched the programme and thought she was head and shoulders above the other panelists. The other highlight for me was the faux indignation of Humza Yousaf when Barry Gardiner replied to a point Humza himself raised (about the Alan Cairns controversy) was a delight to behold.
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windmiller
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby windmiller » 8 Nov 2019, 8:04pm

The issue of Scottish independance appears to be one of many grievances that a large minority of Scots have towards the Union and England in particular.
Of course I believe that they have the right to be fully independant if the majority of them ever vote for it in the future - which I think they will.
However I also think that to present a more objective view of the whole thing, that prior to the vote in Scotland, the other 3 nations should be allowed to vote on whether they want Scotand to remain part of the Union. The result no matter what it decides, will dramatically clear the minds of everyone including the Scots.

The likely outcome of this after much raging and finger pointing etc - will be the funeral and wake of the UK. This will not be as bad as many think, as it will reveal the real problem that the Union has suffered from since its' creation.
The real problem has and always will be for the UK - London

Therefore I suggest to solve this in a new improved Uk, we have a Union that has a 25 year (the length isn't set in stone) mobile financial capital, based in turn in all of the countries of the Union. This should have the beneficial effect of spreading the wealth more equally around these Islands than it ever has been.
Last edited by windmiller on 8 Nov 2019, 11:17pm, edited 2 times in total.

irc
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby irc » 8 Nov 2019, 10:54pm

Paulatic wrote:If the First Minister of a thrice-elected government of Scotland, Leader of the party with the greatest number of Scottish MPs in Westminster doesn't speak for Scotland then who does?


So by that logic Boris Johnston, Leader of the party with the greatest number of English MPs speaks for England? Sturgeon doesn't speak for the majority of Scots who voted to remain in the UK.

Tangled Metal
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Tangled Metal » 8 Nov 2019, 11:45pm

Sturgeon is but one voice. Last GE the SNP got 36.9% of the votes, Tories got 28.6%. Not a strong argument for speaking for the whole of Scotland. Especially since they lost quite a few seats and not so long ago lost the referendum on independence too.

Imho uk, England, Wales, Scotland and northern Ireland have many voices. It's not wise to just listen to one. That's the way to an echo chamber.

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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Paulatic » 9 Nov 2019, 7:14am

irc wrote:
Paulatic wrote:If the First Minister of a thrice-elected government of Scotland, Leader of the party with the greatest number of Scottish MPs in Westminster doesn't speak for Scotland then who does?


So by that logic Boris Johnston, Leader of the party with the greatest number of English MPs speaks for England? Sturgeon doesn't speak for the majority of Scots who voted to remain in the UK.


If there was any logic it was lost when you altered the sentence by adding the word "majority" and then added the qualification of "voted to remain".

Take a look at this, :wink:
Boris Johnston, Leader of the party with the greatest number of English MPs speaks for the majority of England who voted to leave.
See what I did there I’ve made your sentence which was arguably true into something I doubt you’re likely to defend. :)
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Paulatic
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby Paulatic » 9 Nov 2019, 7:31am

Tangled Metal wrote:Sturgeon is but one voice. Last GE the SNP got 36.9% of the votes, Tories got 28.6%. Not a strong argument for speaking for the whole of Scotland. Especially since they lost quite a few seats and not so long ago lost the referendum on independence too.
r.


Using your argument the Tories are in an even weaker position to speak for the UK.

The referendum result, which is well documented on reasons for the result, was if I’m being pedantic enabled by the Scottish Government and not the SNP. It’s easy to forget that not only SNP support independence and not all people who want independence will be SNP voters.
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ambodach
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby ambodach » 9 Nov 2019, 2:15pm

I am a bit bemused always by those voicing opinions who really know very little about the real Scotland and who get their opinions from press and tv who are predominantly anti Scottish and have no qualms about either telling total lies or else distorting any statistics to suit themselves. Nicola Sturgeon is the leader and thus most quoted but there are many other very talented individuals also working away and getting on with the day job.
Having just been on the receiving end of treatment by our nhs I have to say that while certainly overworked they are paid more than in England and there are more per head of population and appeared cheerful,helpful and competent.
This is what B Johnston describes as a basket case organisation but from a users point of view I cannot fault it.

reohn2
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Re: The right way to handle the Scottish Independence?

Postby reohn2 » 9 Nov 2019, 2:29pm

ambodach wrote:I am a bit bemused always by those voicing opinions who really know very little about the real Scotland and who get their opinions from press and tv who are predominantly anti Scottish and have no qualms about either telling total lies or else distorting any statistics to suit themselves. Nicola Sturgeon is the leader and thus most quoted but there are many other very talented individuals also working away and getting on with the day job.
Having just been on the receiving end of treatment by our nhs I have to say that while certainly overworked they are paid more than in England and there are more per head of population and appeared cheerful,helpful and competent.
This is what B Johnston describes as a basket case organisation but from a users point of view I cannot fault it.

I think we know who really is the basket case :roll: :wink:
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