Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

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Vorpal
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Vorpal »

I think that national governments (not just the UK) have a responsibility of supporting businesses, owners, and their staff when they cannot be allowed to operate in order to control infection rates. There are numerous, and wide ranging consequences to the pandemic, and all of them need to be managed effectively. It's obviously a balance between economic and social needs and mental and physical health.

Opinions will vary on whether the British government has struck an appropriate balance.
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Psamathe
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 4:56pm Financial ruin to ordinary people can result in more than a minor inconvenience.
So can dying or long Covid. And as I say, in the UK we can make a choice about providing support to companies (or our Government can). So I assume "we" have chosen the level of support these businesses need to avoid financial ruin. If people feel our Government have not supported certain sectors adequately then they can e.g. write to their MP, vote them out next election, etc.

In terms of impact I have greater concerns for those who fell through the net for any Government support, whose situations were recognised early yet the Government did nothing to provide them any help (e.g. those recently changing jobs, directors of small businesses, self-employed actors, etc.). There are a fair number of people who got a lot less Government support than the hospitality sector.

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by thirdcrank »

If people feel our Government have not supported certain sectors adequately then they can e.g. write to their MP, vote them out next election, etc.
I also have little time for the ongoing pressure from the hospitality industry.
(I sense that Vorpal is getting twitchy)
Psamathe
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 5:11pm
If people feel our Government have not supported certain sectors adequately then they can e.g. write to their MP, vote them out next election, etc.
I also have little time for the ongoing pressure from the hospitality industry.
(I sense that Vorpal is getting twitchy)
My personal opinion is that the hospitality sector has had quite a lot of help (maybe others feel they deserved more). I take this view more through seeing so many who got absolutely no help (despite their situations having been highlighted to the Gov.). I.e. I cannot assess the needs of the hospitality sector but note that before Covid was anywhere near humanity pubs were closing-down and there were too many (non-hospitality) getting no help. So my 1st priority would have been to direct help to those who got nothing.

So I don't see any contradiction in the two bits you quoted. It is true that most of my sympathies lie with some (non-hospitality) people and it is true that people unhappy with the way our Gov. have provided support can write/vote/etc. as they see fit.

Edit: Pre Covid, Pre-lockdown, pre-restrictions from August 2018:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45086080 wrote:Pubs are continuing to struggle with 18 closing a week in Britain, according to the latest industry figures.
...
Four out of five people had seen a pub shut down within five miles of their home in the last five years, it said.
Ian
Jdsk
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Jdsk »

markjohnobrien wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 3:59pmI have little time for the lobbying of the hospitality industry who have launched a judicial review against the “unfairness” of restrictions against pubs and restaurants.

Shows the need for reform of judicial review as it indulges the frivolous, the time wasters, and politically motivated.
Judicial review is standing up OK as one of the defences against misuse of Ministerial power, and is particularly important when the others are visibly failing.

If that means that the hospitality industry can use it that's fine by me regardless of what I think of their case.

Jonathan
Vorpal
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Vorpal »

Anecdotally.... Someone I know who is a child minder in England also works in catering. She is self-employed in both. Although 1 day of work in catering has typically made more money than 1 day of work child minding, because the catering income was only on weekends & holidays, most of her income for the year was from child minding.

When she could not earn money from child minding due to covid, the grants were calculated based on the worst 3 months of the year for her, and paid 80% of the average of those, which came out to less than 60% of what she usually earns. Then, on top of it, she got no compensation at all for the periods when she was allowed to work, but parents (working from home) chose not to send their kids to a child minder because she still had some clients, she was considered to be working, even though it was between 1/3 and 1/2 her normal work, and way below capacity. She also lost almost all of the income she usually earns walking kids to school (in addition to the kids she looks after as a child minder). She has more expenses to meet requirements to prevent the spread of infection, to keep kids entertained when she couldn't take them on days out, and because her daughter was home from university.

She received a higher proportion of her earnings from the catering, but both were slow in arriving. She and her daughter ended up relying on her mum quite a lot last year. If she hadn't been able to do that? I can well imagine that some folks are in desperate straits.
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markjohnobrien
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by markjohnobrien »

I fundamentally disagree: the expansion of judicial review has been enormous and some historical perspective is needed as it was previously seen as peculiar and obviously wrong that every decision of government could be automatically scrutinised - otherwise, how could a government (of any political stripe) govern?

“Consider the distance travelled from these opening words of the 1973 edition of De Smith’s Judicial Review of Administrative Action:
Judicial review of administrative action is inevitably sporadic and peripheral. The administrative process is not, and cannot be, a succession of justiciable controversies. Public authorities are set up to govern and administer, and if their every act or decision were to be reviewable on unrestricted grounds by an independent judicial body the business of administration could be brought to a standstill. The prospect of judicial relief cannot be held out to every person whose interests may be adversely affected by administrative action.”

https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-conten ... Review.pdf

The wheel of fashion/paradigm has swing in the opposite direction and any reform is seen as an attack on traditional liberties.
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markjohnobrien
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by markjohnobrien »

But no more on this topic, as it’s about Covid.
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Psamathe
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Psamathe »

Vorpal wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 5:52pm ....
She received a higher proportion of her earnings from the catering, but both were slow in arriving. She and her daughter ended up relying on her mum quite a lot last year. If she hadn't been able to do that? I can well imagine that some folks are in desperate straits.
It highlights the complexity of the support issues. I don't understand the intricacies of the entertainment business but was concerned when the Government declared big sounding numbers for the industry businesses - money which went to the companies whilst the actors, stage hands, etc. that those businesses relied on were mostly self-employed and many ended-up getting very little support (I know of one who had to move out of his flat and move in with his parents as friends in "same boat" had no money to lend just paying for food meant parental help).

In the case of the hospitality sector there must be a massive range of business types from small landlord owned Free-houses through to big Wetherspoons, small B&Bs to massive luxury hotels, etc. so support gets complex, particularly where you have self-employed and "gig-economy" workers. It always worried me that Johnson announced new restrictions at 17:00 and the 19:00 news had representatives of the hospitality industry on crying foul declaring their plight without recognising the death & health aspects, without recognising quite a few were cut lose on their own with no help. Different people will always prioritise different aspects but for me people dying and suffering long-term debilitating illness is pretty high on the "avoid" list and people getting no help higher than those getting some help.

Ian
Psamathe
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Psamathe »

markjohnobrien wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 5:53pm I fundamentally disagree: the expansion of judicial review has been enormous and some historical perspective is needed as it was previously seen as peculiar and obviously wrong that every decision of government could be automatically scrutinised - otherwise, how could a government (of any political stripe) govern?
....
Personally I feel issue is we recently have had Governments who have failed to act within the law. And then Judicial Review is one of the only paths available to hold them to account. I suspect that the increase in the number of cases stems from Government who increasingly fail to respect our laws.

I'm no legal expert but I suspect the courts are pretty quick to throw-out cases that have no merit - so if it's a real punt it wont take much court resource.

Ian
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by markjohnobrien »

Not as simple as that: because of the massive expansion of JR which has taken place over a longer time period than this government has been in power, it takes far, far, longer to enact law due to the threat of myriad JR cases. Basically, slowing down the whole process of government. Unintended consequences.
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Jdsk
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Jdsk »

markjohnobrien wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 6:14pm Not as simple as that: because of the massive expansion of JR which has taken place over a longer time period than this government has been in power, it takes far, far, longer to enact law due to the threat of myriad JR cases. Basically, slowing down the whole process of government. Unintended consequences.
Primary legislation isn't subject to judicial review in the UK.

But sticking to the outbreak how many applications have there been so far: PPE procurement, track and trace procurement, Abingdon Health, secondary legislation related to the "lockdown", closure of Scottish churches, the hospitality industry... what else? Is there a site that's tracking them all?

Jonathan

PS: IfG Explainer: "Government emergency powers and coronavirus"
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... ncy-powers
Jdsk
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 6:24pm
markjohnobrien wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 6:14pm Not as simple as that: because of the massive expansion of JR which has taken place over a longer time period than this government has been in power, it takes far, far, longer to enact law due to the threat of myriad JR cases. Basically, slowing down the whole process of government. Unintended consequences.
Primary legislation isn't subject to judicial review in the UK.
Just out:

"Judicial review and policy making"
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... ial-review

"It argues that the prospect of a judicial review often leads to more effective decision making in Whitehall. The legal requirement that government decisions have a “rational basis” encourages evidence-based policy making, while the requirement for public bodies to follow a fair decision-making process promotes transparency. The report also says that ministers should test controversial policies in parliament rather than in court, as judges cannot strike down primary legislation."

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Psamathe »

Anybody had any of their 2 free C-19 tests per week?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56632084 wrote:Covid: Tests to be offered twice-weekly to all in England
(widely reported).
A lot of noise about it as easing restrictions started but heard nothing since then, I've not been offered anything, no instructions on how to get these tests (I've not searched online) and not seen anything reporting the usefulness or findings from this scheme (which is not the surge testing in localities).

Ian
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by markjohnobrien »

Psamathe wrote: 18 Apr 2021, 11:15am Anybody had any of their 2 free C-19 tests per week?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56632084 wrote:Covid: Tests to be offered twice-weekly to all in England
(widely reported).
A lot of noise about it as easing restrictions started but heard nothing since then, I've not been offered anything, no instructions on how to get these tests (I've not searched online) and not seen anything reporting the usefulness or findings from this scheme (which is not the surge testing in localities).

Ian
Yes, I’ve been having one test a week.
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