Anyone for Gas?

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Stevek76
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Stevek76 »

Largely yes the M25 does have hard shoulders, though in most parts they disappear under bridges.

That said, even on motorways that run traffic in the hard shoulder, the lanes are 3.65m wide so emergency vehicles aren't stuck completely but it's rather* slower as people have to shuffle out of the way.
Last edited by Stevek76 on 22 Sep 2021, 8:50am, edited 1 time in total.
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661-Pete
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by 661-Pete »

Psamathe wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 9:53pm Does the M25 have a hard shoulder any more? (as I believe emergency vehicles are allowed to use the hard shoulder; I thought emergency use was the main purpose of the hard shoulder, what it was designed for).

Personally I feel it daft for hard shoulders to have been removed from some motorways and that the removal makes them somewhat more dangerous.

Ian
You can say that again! Currently they're converting a stretch of the M27, between Fareham and Southampton, into a 'smart' motorway. And I thought there was supposed to be a moratorium on all 'smart' conversions which have now been proven to be dangerous. So what's going on?

Re the M25 blockade - I've not been following the story so I can't really comment. But we've joined in several peaceful protests with XR. Is the M25 blockade 'peaceful'? If nothing else serves, Climate Change activists have to gain attention. If nothing is done, we're doomed anyway...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
pwa
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by pwa »

I am fortunate enough not to be an M25 user, so I can view what is going on with some detachment, but I suspect they have now reached a point where the anger and resentment the protesters are generating is losing them potential support and undermining their goal. Their goal is a good one but the tactic needs to change.
Vorpal
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Vorpal »

ossie wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 7:30pm
Vorpal wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:32am
As far as I am concerned, protesters should shut down the M25 every day. And other motorways, too. The convenience of someone's trip being disrupted is nothing compared to the looming disaster.
Until you have a relative stuck in that traffic who needs urgent medical care. There are a myriad of reasons why these lunatics shouldn't be blocking the M25.
First of all, they don't stay there long do they? The police remove them.

Secondly, emergency vehicles can use the shoulder, and have the possibility to move through congestion.

Thirdly, the M25 is often like that without protesters.
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Vorpal
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Vorpal »

pwa wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 5:43am I am fortunate enough not to be an M25 user, so I can view what is going on with some detachment, but I suspect they have now reached a point where the anger and resentment the protesters are generating is losing them potential support and undermining their goal. Their goal is a good one but the tactic needs to change.
The tactic needs to change? What tactic can garner attention that hasn't been tried already? Pretty much everything they do generates anger & people calling them lunatics.

It's rather like the suffragettes being told their behaviour was unbecoming.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Mike Sales
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Mike Sales »

One day, when the effects of failing to reduce CO2 emmissions as rapidly as possible have become much more evident, it will seem grotesque that we set the law on the people who were doing what little they could to avert the coming disasters.
XR should not need to remind the Government of the urgency. That is the scandal which their action has brought to prominence.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by al_yrpal »

I think the protestors would be much more successful if they selected various types of buildings, homes, public buildings, factories, shopping centres etc and measured their energy usage, then insulated them properly and advertised the results widely and loudly. The savings in money, the savings in greenhouse gases, and the feelings that you were doing your bit would actually spur many people on. Positive rather than negative...
Much better than the extremist antisocial nutter label that these protestors are tarred with presently which is manna from heaven for the gutter press.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...
francovendee
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by francovendee »

The efforts of the protesters on the M25 will infuriate some and be applauded by others. It all depends if you are directly inconvenienced.
If these protests are worthwhile what will it achieve?
Maybe put more pressure on the government to reduce our emissions but how will a protester on the M25 achieve an impact on what the rest of the world does.
I applaud the sentiment but doubt anything we do in the UK will influence other nations.
Many countries pay lip service to reducing emissions, China being one.
I'm feeling pessimistic this morning and feel were all doomed and we'll destroy or change earth out of all recognition.
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Vorpal »

al_yrpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:26am I think the protestors would be much more successful if they selected various types of buildings, homes, public buildings, factories, shopping centres etc and measured their energy usage, then insulated them properly and advertised the results widely and loudly. The savings in money, the savings in greenhouse gases, and the feelings that you were doing your bit would actually spur many people on. Positive rather than negative...
Much better than the extremist antisocial nutter label that these protestors are tarred with presently which is manna from heaven for the gutter press.

Al
Are they supposed to break in to do this insulating?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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al_yrpal
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by al_yrpal »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:45am
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:26am I think the protestors would be much more successful if they selected various types of buildings, homes, public buildings, factories, shopping centres etc and measured their energy usage, then insulated them properly and advertised the results widely and loudly. The savings in money, the savings in greenhouse gases, and the feelings that you were doing your bit would actually spur many people on. Positive rather than negative...
Much better than the extremist antisocial nutter label that these protestors are tarred with presently which is manna from heaven for the gutter press.

Al
Are they supposed to break in to do this insulating?
No, just do it lawfully in conjunction with the owners. You dont get public sympathy by randomly targeting the public. And...not only insulating, lots of other ways of reducing energy consumption as you, an engineer should know.

Nice opportunity for the Beeb to make some programmes. A real meaningful microcosm of what we the public should be doing as our bit to aleviate the climate crisis.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Vorpal »

al_yrpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:51am
Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:45am
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:26am I think the protestors would be much more successful if they selected various types of buildings, homes, public buildings, factories, shopping centres etc and measured their energy usage, then insulated them properly and advertised the results widely and loudly. The savings in money, the savings in greenhouse gases, and the feelings that you were doing your bit would actually spur many people on. Positive rather than negative...
Much better than the extremist antisocial nutter label that these protestors are tarred with presently which is manna from heaven for the gutter press.

Al
Are they supposed to break in to do this insulating?
No, just do it lawfully in conjunction with the owners. You dont get public sympathy by randomly targeting the public. And...not only insulating, lots of other ways of reducing energy consumption as you, an engineer should know.

Al
Where are they going to get the money for that sort of thing? If insulation grants & aggressive marketing by firms that do insulating haven't gotten someone to insulate their home, how is an environmentalist knocking on the door going to make any difference?

I don't think that the point is sympathy, and it's hardly random. Someone who believes that we *have* to stop driving everywhere and make a massive shift to walking, cycling, and public transport is never going to get sympathy from someone who believes they have a right to drive wherever they want. Environmentalists have been saying for years that we have to do something, as things became more and more urgent. They have attempted to use political processes and raise awareness by socially acceptable means.

We have reached a point now where every failed chance by every government to take action is likely to mean additional deaths and people displaced. Driving an SUV around the M25 seems like a giant rude gesture in that context.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Pebble
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Pebble »

The protesters are getting media coverage and the subject brought to light - power to their elbow! If I could cycle to where the protests are, I would join in.

May be we should have one day a week where everyone who cares about the environment does not exceed half the speed limit. Yes I can hear the argument that if you do care then don't drive, however that is easier said than done, society has built itself around the car, alternatives are not very practical in so many circumstances.
Mike Sales
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Mike Sales »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 9:17am

Driving an SUV around the M25 seems like a giant rude gesture in that context.
It has been claimed that the protestors increase emmissions because all these stopped vehicles are sitting there burning fuel.
Does it not occur to the drivers to switch off their engines?
Judging by the number of parked vehicles I see sitting there with their engines putting out pollution, I guess not.
DevonDamo
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by DevonDamo »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:45am
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:26am I think the protestors would be much more successful if they selected various types of buildings, homes, public buildings, factories, shopping centres etc and measured their energy usage, then insulated them properly and advertised the results widely and loudly. The savings in money, the savings in greenhouse gases, and the feelings that you were doing your bit would actually spur many people on. Positive rather than negative...
Much better than the extremist antisocial nutter label that these protestors are tarred with presently which is manna from heaven for the gutter press.

Al
Are they supposed to break in to do this insulating?
Could I remind fellow members that we've been asked not to "insult others, either directly, or indirectly." Al didn't suggest that these buildings were to be insulated against the owners' will, and it's insulting to imply that he would propose such a ludicrous idea.

Might I also take the opportunity to apologise to Al for my disgraceful earlier post, where I'd used a Victorian Punch cartoon pastiche to liken my fellow forum member's concern about the behaviour of climate protesters to someone being upset about the pushy nature of the pro-paddlers rather than the fact that their canoe was about to go over the edge of a waterfall. Quite rightly a certain moderator deleted this post for the gross offence, anxiety and trauma it would have caused.

As they say: LOL.
Stevek76
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Stevek76 »

Mike Sales wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 9:35am It has been claimed that the protestors increase emmissions because all these stopped vehicles are sitting there burning fuel.
Just another one for the protest bingo card really. Tends to have quite a big overlap with the bingo card for any other measure that causes even the slightest hindrance to the perceived right to drive and dump vehicles wherever the one objecting pleases.

Also unlikely to be true, though the immediate impact would be a slight increase, the wider behavioural effects would likely offset that.
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