Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

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reohn2
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by reohn2 »

PH wrote: 25 Sep 2021, 12:32am
simonineaston wrote: 24 Sep 2021, 10:22pm What Labour are so very good at is internice squabbles that keep them too busy to develop into a credible alternative.
What the Tories are good at is getting their chums in the media to keep churning out the above message till people believe it.
If internal struggles were enough to keep a party out of power, Heath would have been the last Tory PM and lets not forget it was only to quell a few squabbling backbenchers that led us to Brexit.
I don't disagree with anything Ken Loach says in that piece, but there's no answers there and even if there were who's listening? I think the Labour Party as I see it, the political wing of the Labour Movement, is finished. Corbyn was the last gasp attempt at the membership having control, Starmer is right now attempting to marginalise them on leadership selection.

I agree,though what KL is proposing as a way forward is a new party

In an election or two and several leaders down the road, we will end up with a new New Labour, they will be better than the Tories, but not radically so.
And look what happened last time under Blair leadership!
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Jdsk
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by Jdsk »

Ben@Forest wrote: 24 Sep 2021, 7:40pm Loach is nothing if not a hypocrite - he's made a great deal of criticising artists who perform in Israel whilst having his own films released there - and he has also criticised McDonalds despite having taken their shilling before.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/201 ... -of-israel
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/j ... onalds-job

I personally see Loach as an anti-Semite.
That's a very strong accusation. I've read the linked articles. Where's the evidence of antisemitism, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
PH
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by PH »

reohn2 wrote: 25 Sep 2021, 8:06am I agree,though what KL is proposing as a way forward is a new party
Is he? I heard him say a new political party at the moment would be suicide, what he's calling for is a broad left wing movement within and outside the party ready to take over when possible, sounds like a political coup. If we want to talk about history repeating, doesn't that sound like Militant? Or to a lesser extent Momentum?
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al_yrpal
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by al_yrpal »

Too right, the first Beeb report on the Labour Conference this morning focussed on internal squabbles not on any message that would resonate with the public. Starmer highlighted the various shortages and difficulties which of course he attributed to the government. Some hopes for a completely new party! We are locked in the same old class based battle of ideas. Starmer and Rayner represent the two factions pretty accurately, far apart.

Al
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reohn2
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by reohn2 »

PH wrote: 25 Sep 2021, 9:46am
reohn2 wrote: 25 Sep 2021, 8:06am I agree,though what KL is proposing as a way forward is a new party
Is he? I heard him say a new political party at the moment would be suicide, what he's calling for is a broad left wing movement within and outside the party ready to take over when possible, sounds like a political coup. If we want to talk about history repeating, doesn't that sound like Militant? Or to a lesser extent Momentum?
Rewritten post:-
KL said:-
"A new political party would be suicide AT THE MOMENT,what we do need is a politicalmovement across the whole left,inside and outside the Labour Party.Which has got to become a[POLITICAL] PARTY when the time is right"

I've posted this before,what the country needs is a revolution,a sweeping away entirely of the present political system which is rotten to the core and come what may only ever suits the rich because politics is owned by the rich.
That situation can only change by a people's revolution until then we're on the merry go round of the richman's whims

Politics is being bought and sold by scurrilous millionaires and billionaires for means to their own ends,such people don't give a damn for democracy,the planet,truth or justice,they only care for profit,their profit.

The sooner the ordinary wo/man on the street realises it and starts thinking for themselves the sooner things will change,presently they'll believe anything the rightwing media tells them,my hope is that with what's happened in the past two years and they might have begun to realise they've been had good style by liars and shysters and are ready for perminent change for the better.
Last edited by reohn2 on 25 Sep 2021, 6:12pm, edited 3 times in total.
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reohn2
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 25 Sep 2021, 1:41pm Too right, the first Beeb report on the Labour Conference this morning focussed on internal squabbles not on any message that would resonate with the public. Starmer highlighted the various shortages and difficulties which of course he attributed to the government. Some hopes for a completely new party! We are locked in the same old class based battle of ideas. Starmer and Rayner represent the two factions pretty accurately, far apart.

Al
I agree,Rayner and Starmer are miles apart and Starmer isn't the man to lead the country,Rayner OTOH is made of much better stuff!
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mumbojumbo
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by mumbojumbo »

Rayner has an authentic working-class pedigree, but comes across as a little inarticulate. Starmer is polished to the point where a hypnotic trance is induced. They offer a melange of polish and passion-unfortunately it is a combination of Rayner's poise and Starmer's passion .Bring back D Abbot.
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661-Pete
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by 661-Pete »

reohn2 wrote: 24 Sep 2021, 4:17pm If you'd listened to the end you'd realise how wrong you are about how KL now feels about the Labour Party...
Well, R2, I'm wondering if you're claiming to have telepathic powers! :lol: Nowhere in my brief post did I say anything about "how KL feels about the Labour party". You made that up!

But I did watch the video again, right through to the end this time. Yes it's KL doing a hatchet job on Starmer (and throwing in the odd swipe at the Grauniad for good measure)! No surprise. But where he talks about it being 'suicidal to form a new party', what he really means is that he wants to reinstate Corbyn and sling out all the middle ground (or 'right-wingers' as he calls them): in other words take over the Labour Party. And also to restore Union influence - so that the Brex**it-loving McCluskey and that ilk effectively govern the country. Yes I know McCluskey is now departed - but his buddies still hold sway....

Maybe that's the right thing for some left-wingers. Count me out. I call myself a left-winger, but it's evidently a different sort of left-winger.

Is this a class thing? Does my voice count for nowt because I don't label myself as 'working class' - whatever that means?
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reohn2
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by reohn2 »

661-Pete wrote: 25 Sep 2021, 7:39pm
reohn2 wrote: 24 Sep 2021, 4:17pm If you'd listened to the end you'd realise how wrong you are about how KL now feels about the Labour Party...
Well, R2, I'm wondering if you're claiming to have telepathic powers! :lol: Nowhere in my brief post did I say anything about "how KL feels about the Labour party". You made that up!
I was referring to how you couldn't know much about what he said because you only watched a couple of minutes of the video.
But I did watch the video again, right through to the end this time. Yes it's KL doing a hatchet job on Starmer (and throwing in the odd swipe at the Grauniad for good measure)! No surprise. But where he talks about it being 'suicidal to form a new party', what he really means is that he wants to reinstate Corbyn and sling out all the middle ground (or 'right-wingers' as he calls them): in other words take over the Labour Party. And also to restore Union influence - so that the Brex**it-loving McCluskey and that ilk effectively govern the country. Yes I know McCluskey is now departed - but his buddies still hold sway....

Maybe that's the right thing for some left-wingers. Count me out. I call myself a left-winger, but it's evidently a different sort of left-winger.

Is this a class thing? Does my voice count for nowt because I don't label myself as 'working class' - whatever that means?
It's more of a country in deep doodah due to very rich people spreading lies about people they're afraid of stopping them making a fortune out of disaster which is their stock in trade
The people(the Labour party led by Corbyn) they're afraid of want a far more equal society where the workers have more of asay in how the country is run instead of the line of pretence of caring the Tories have always spun.
I suspect things will get worse presently and the near future and will need to before people realise just bad and low the country has sunk under Tory rule.
I just heard on the news that Starmer is proposing removing charitable status from private schools which is of course a small step in the right direction,but it'll need far more radical and sweeping changes to change this country for the better.
There's rough times ahead,we haven't seen nothing yet,but one thing's for sure the Tory establishemnt scum(some of wwhich are Labour party members,one was interviewed in the video) will continue to spout their lies about good honest men and women such as Corbyn,I strongly suspect the likes of Rayner will be in their sights next as someone to spread their lies about.
You keep thinking the Green Party stands a cat in hell's chance on it's own,but in the present climate all it will do is split the vote and play into the hands of the Tory establishment as they laugh all the way to their favourite place,the bank!
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Carlton green
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by Carlton green »

PH wrote: 25 Sep 2021, 12:32am
simonineaston wrote: 24 Sep 2021, 10:22pm What Labour are so very good at is internice squabbles that keep them too busy to develop into a credible alternative.
What the Tories are good at is getting their chums in the media to keep churning out the above message till people believe it.
Both of you are correct. However the Labour Party does itself no favours by supplying the bullets for others to fire at it. Like him or loath him Blair understood much and if Labour seriously intend to be in power again then they’ll have to accept that the route to it is via another Blair - possibly one guided by the original Tony, winner of many elections.
reohn2
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by reohn2 »

Carlton green wrote: 26 Sep 2021, 8:55am
PH wrote: 25 Sep 2021, 12:32am
simonineaston wrote: 24 Sep 2021, 10:22pm What Labour are so very good at is internice squabbles that keep them too busy to develop into a credible alternative.
What the Tories are good at is getting their chums in the media to keep churning out the above message till people believe it.
Both of you are correct. However the Labour Party does itself no favours by supplying the bullets for others to fire at it. Like him or loath him Blair understood much and if Labour seriously intend to be in power again then they’ll have to accept that the route to it is via another Blair - possibly one guided by the original Tony, winner of many elections.
Blair will only ever be remembered in UK people's minds as "The War Criminal".
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by al_yrpal »

...and apart from that an effective and long lasting PM. I do not understand the lack of pragmatism amongst labour supporters? Principles are of little use if they prevent the exercise of any political power whatsoever. Loaches desire for a new party will just split the vote. It will need moderate Tories to join with moderate Labour politicians. Cannot see that happening.

Al
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by atoz »

You can tell just how bad things are for Labour when the Beeb aren't covering the conference proceedings. That's probably because it was considered even too boring for BBC Parliament channel. Starmer takes boring to a new level. New Labour without the charisma lol. For all Corbyn's faults he was never like this. But he's also incompetent, he couldn't manage to stitch up conference properly.

No danger of Starmer doing Glastonbury methinks. That clip of Corbyn wooing the festival audience will be on YouTube forever. No prizes as to where the young people's vote is going, it's increasingly going Green. That's where the future's at, not with Sir Boring flanked with his New Labour dinosaur echo chamber, angling for the Tory pensioner vote. That target audience will vote Tory as it always does. They want a full fat Tory PM, not Red Tory Light. I think Boris has the top job for as long as he wants it. But don't believe me, believe the poll evidence. Boris got most of his votes from the over 50s, and that hasn't changed.

As for pragmatism. Labour lost that by appearing to reject the Brexit vote. Not clever. General election 2019, Hartlepool by election this year.

The future is what's happened in Scotland where the Greens have real power. Labour are irrelevant there. They will be irrelevant in England soon.
Carlton green
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by Carlton green »

al_yrpal wrote: 26 Sep 2021, 9:59am ...and apart from that an effective and long lasting PM. I do not understand the lack of pragmatism amongst labour supporters? Principles are of little use if they prevent the exercise of any political power whatsoever.

Quite, you’ve ‘hit the nail on the head’. However in this particular echo-chamber I very much doubt that anyone will take your wisdom on board. Who is the Labour Party’s biggest enemy? It is themselves and they repeatedly give others reasons and ammunition to pour scorn on them. Blair knew how to get elected, he looked at what the electorate would support and then gave it to them; it ain’t Rocket Science.
thirdcrank
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Re: Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

Post by thirdcrank »

.... another Blair - possibly one guided by the original Tony, winner of many elections. ....
I misread that as "Tory" and that's the point here: Thatcher in a lounge suit, (or whatever togs suited the moment.)
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