Mark1978 wrote:It's hard to quantify external costs. But certainly to the purchaser then Diesels do represent an increased up front cost c. £1,500 over some petrol models.
I liked my Diesel and had the car not been falling apart around the still sound engine I would still be driving one. But I changed to a Turbo Petrol who's driving characteristics are very similar to the Diesel engine and I'm very happy with the switch. But I do have to refuel slightly more often, that's for sure.
Yes that upfront cost may be becoming even more of a burden if there are likely higher penalties applied to diesel cars in the near future, resale prices will drop and this will make it worse again. If I had to go out now and buy a car there is a very high probability it would be a Ford 3 pot turbo 1 litre, either fiesta or focus. The claimed mpg figure for this car, like most manufacturers today, seem a little optimistic but depending on driving style and journey type I'd still expect high 40's. The turbo gives a nice torque boost to make the characteristic more diesel like as you have experience of. It's a nice engine, and so many manufacturers have jumped on the bandwagon with similar configurations. It's quite amusing that daihatsu had the charade gti, 3 cylinder turbo 99bhp, back in 1988. It was designed for hot hatch performance yet 30yrs on we are repeating the cycle but with lower emmissions and better mpg.
Mpgg wise I'm actually getting around 10% more mpg than the government figures for my diesel but they were based on the roughly 1/3 urban 2/3 motorway tests of 15 yrs ago( obviously on a testbench/rolling road ).
[XAP]Bob wrote:That's one reason I think they're all missing a trick in terms in non replaceable battery packs. With a single physical format it should be easy to upgrade the battery pack
I agree. Standard across all (most) vehicles. Also gets round the range limitations as you can pull into a "petrol station" and swap battery packs (your nearly discharged one for a fully charged one). Cost of the "refuel" would include an allowance towards the packs wearing out and needing replacement - which also gets around the psychological cost of "when the batteries wear out" big bill as it is now spread over every "refuel". And motivation for the "fuel stations" to install wind/solar generators as they can lower their costs and get round the "electricity storage" argument people keep putting up against renewable power generation.
meic wrote:It is almost as if they were more interested in making profit by selling more goods than doing what benefits you and the environment.
Standardisation on such things is almost always driven by standards or laws. So, in 6 years time, when the EEC committee* set up to look at the standardisation of electric car batteries, publishes their first draft, manufacturers will probably start designing stuff they think will comply.
*I don't know if there is such a committee; I didn't bother to look it up, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there is.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.” ― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Old_Windbag wrote: The power/torque characteristics of electric motors are excellent and to have a 500mile range and recharge in say 5mins( similar to filling a full fuel tank ) would be heaven..... we'll get there. Perhaps manufacturer standardisation of batteries and having instant swap stations is possible.
I mentioned this possibility earlier. The manufacturers seem to be going off at tangents to produce what thy think is the way an electric vehicle should be. Theres an enormous market if the logistics of near instant recharge are available and low price for those on normal incomes. The standardised on many other vehicle systems ( J1939 CANbus etc ) so to all, or most, get together and design a standard sized battery envelope( or family of for different power capabilities ) then life could be sweet for everyone. The hot swap filling stations would need to have a large enough resevoir of packs to swap whilst fast charging those just swapped out, but thats back to queueing theory and similar. I'm sure it could be achieved if minds come together. At present there is some standardisation on charging points and their connectors, but there are several choices still but not too big a problem. Hydrogen stations are another alternative( quite energy intensive to produce ). We really could have a greener personal transport infrastructure europe wide, it'd be a positive step forward. The Saudis will love it...... .
Cunobelin wrote:Once again we are in danger of letting a massive red herring divert the real agenda
Why are we not looking at ALL vehicles
Why not double the tax on ALL fuels this year and again next year to price ALL vehicles off the roads
We need to address vehicle usage as opposed to demonising one particular type, after all any car emits fumes that have a health hazard
+1
I do wonder how often people drive. I reckon it must be once a day as in most towns and on most roads there is an unending stream of traffic. Everything we do in life is mediated through driving - from taking the children to school to buying a loaf of bread. It's insanity literally on an industrial scale.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
Yes of course, but what option do we have? I've just driven to take Mrs Mick F to work. Mile each way. Yes she could walk, but it's very hilly. No public transport. Cycling is very impracticable.
I'll be collecting her later this afternoon and then going shopping in Tavistock. Yes, we could get the bus, but there's no way we'd use it because the timetables are terrible so I'm not sure we could get back again.
Chicken and egg? We drive because it's convenient. Because we drive, the busses can't make a profit.
Mick F wrote:Yes of course, but what option do we have? I've just driven to take Mrs Mick F to work. Mile each way. Yes she could walk, but it's very hilly. No public transport. Cycling is very impracticable. (my bold)
old_windbag wrote: If I had to go out now and buy a car there is a very high probability it would be a Ford 3 pot turbo 1 litre, either fiesta or focus. The claimed mpg figure for this car, like most manufacturers today, seem a little optimistic but depending on driving style and journey type I'd still expect high 40's. The turbo gives a nice torque boost to make the characteristic more diesel like as you have experience of. It's a nice engine,
It is a very nice engine, and that was the first thing I thought when I picked mine up, that it drives much more like a turbo diesel than a normal petrol engine, but it's much lighter so the handling is crisper. It may not be massively powerful at 100bhp but it's still the most powerful car I've had.
The engine is the high point of the car however, the rest of it I'm not so keen on, the seats are uncomfortable, the clutch is heavy and is wearing out my knee joints, and it's inexplicably dusty inside *all* the time.
Old_Windbag wrote: The power/torque characteristics of electric motors are excellent and to have a 500mile range and recharge in say 5mins( similar to filling a full fuel tank ) would be heaven..... we'll get there. Perhaps manufacturer standardisation of batteries and having instant swap stations is possible.
I mentioned this possibility earlier. The manufacturers seem to be going off at tangents to produce what thy think is the way an electric vehicle should be. Theres an enormous market if the logistics of near instant recharge are available and low price for those on normal incomes. The standardised on many other vehicle systems ( J1939 CANbus etc ) so to all, or most, get together and design a standard sized battery envelope( or family of for different power capabilities ) then life could be sweet for everyone. The hot swap filling stations would need to have a large enough resevoir of packs to swap whilst fast charging those just swapped out, but thats back to queueing theory and similar. I'm sure it could be achieved if minds come together. At present there is some standardisation on charging points and their connectors, but there are several choices still but not too big a problem. Hydrogen stations are another alternative( quite energy intensive to produce ). We really could have a greener personal transport infrastructure europe wide, it'd be a positive step forward. The Saudis will love it...... .
Hot swapping the batteries seems like a good idea on paper but the practicalities mean I can't ever see it workout out in practice. There's just too many different types of vehicle and different battery sizes and types. Not to mention the sheer weight of the batteries, and much like mobile phone manufacturers have discovered it's much easier to design a product where the battery is not user removable.
Rapid / semi-rapid charging is definitely the thing. Most times we have to stop for 20 minutes or so per 100 miles so the car can be charged then, it's just the charging infrastructure that needs to be put into place.
Range extenders have an important role too. e.g. the BMW i3 REx has a small petrol motorbike engine with a 10 litre fuel tank, which can keep the battery charged enough for another 100 miles, you if you really can't stop or find a charging point there's the option of a splash and dash at a petrol station.
I was pleased to see the Vauxhall Ampera when it was released but fainted at the price. That was in 2012 now it seems they are in the 2nd hand market though still quite pricey but a possible alternative to a 2nd hand mondeo or insignia. Depends on reliability etc. The adverts were stating a 380 mile range if my memory serves me correctly. I'm eaking each MOT out to put off the inevitable purchase of next vehicle, last year came very close to mechanically having no choice but have had an extra year. Next due in June.
I noticed one review put as a con, "only 4 seats". Are we all running mini-bus companies. I think this upsizing/inflating of everything is getting ridiculous. Cars like fiat 500 then gets a 500L version. I struggle to find mens trousers in 30" waist, yet theres large amounts of 40". We are definitely becoming americans, but not the best attributes of such. The size of Jukes and Qashqais too, pretty pointless ugly designs, but it gave a blind person a job which I suppose is a positive to take away from it.
Mick F wrote: Chicken and egg? We drive because it's convenient. Because we drive, the busses can't make a profit.
OR Chicken and egg We drive because it's convenient. Because it's convenient we drive
And so more and more events in our lives are turned into car journeys. The marginal cost is so low (sometimes zero if you have enough fuel in the tank) that any need or cost can be mitigated by going by car. In fact the only thing that I'm aware of that in recent years has stopped people driving (apart from a ban) is the fear of losing their residential parking space - when they come back it's gone - so they walk.
Cunobelin is right: diesel, electric or petrol makes no difference. We are now car bound creatures living out our lives trapped in tiny albeit comfortable cages. It's very sad.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
old_windbag wrote: If I had to go out now and buy a car there is a very high probability it would be a Ford 3 pot turbo 1 litre, either fiesta or focus. The claimed mpg figure for this car, like most manufacturers today, seem a little optimistic but depending on driving style and journey type I'd still expect high 40's.
I've heard real life mpg for the Ford 1L turbo a bit lower. Maybe depending on the size of car. My experience with a 2012 Octavia 1.4 turbo petrol is mpg in the mid 40s for general use. High 40s for relaxed motorway driving. Worst I've seen is 39mpg with a lot of short town journeys. Twice had 52mpg for Glasgow to Skye and back A road 50-60mph driving.
Driving characteristic compared with my previous 1.8 petrol Mondeo - the Octy pulls much better from low revs. Not quite as fast at the top end but that only matters for A road overtakes. Anywhere else the Octy delivers the power lower down. Less gear changing required. Ample power to overtake in 6th at motorway speeds.
The mpg advantage for diesels is a lot less than it once was. Far less pollutants than a diesel so a good thing for the local environment too.
irc wrote:Twice had 52mpg for Glasgow to Skye and back A road 50-60mph driving.
Thats pretty good for a) a petrol engine and b) a car the size of an Octavia which is a very practical all rounder.
I drove an octavia hire car many years ago and was impressed by it. I tend to be a hypermiler, my 2.2ltr turbo diesel( a generation or two behind current ones ) will return around 56-57mpg on a good dual carriageway run at 60 typically. Short trips around mid-upper 40's. So the differential is getting better beteen the two fuels and perhaps the advancing of diesel technology has filtered down to petrol turbo's. My next car looks to be fueled by petrol due to change of lifestyle and circumstances but pollutants aside, I'm still impressed by the characteristics and efficiency of diesel. Electric motors I feel have probably the best all round characteristic.......... shearing driveshafts from 0rpm . As I've said above the future is a bright one given all the sharp minds working on solutions. And not a politician amongst any of them .
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