Is Britain full?

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al_yrpal
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby al_yrpal » 19 Oct 2015, 9:19pm

Vorpal wrote:If we built more energy efficient housing and learned to be less wasteful, Britain could absorb many more people than the proposed numbers of refugees without significant impact on the environment. That's probably true of most Western countries.

If Britain is full, we'd better not let any expatriates return, either.


But...you don't live in Britain and continually demonstrate how little you actually understand about it and its people.

Al
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Lawrie9
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby Lawrie9 » 19 Oct 2015, 9:22pm

Yes Britain is full to overflowing
No jam doughnuts stored here overnight

beardy
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby beardy » 19 Oct 2015, 9:33pm

al_yrpal wrote:
Vorpal wrote:If we built more energy efficient housing and learned to be less wasteful, Britain could absorb many more people than the proposed numbers of refugees without significant impact on the environment. That's probably true of most Western countries.

If Britain is full, we'd better not let any expatriates return, either.


But...you don't live in Britain and continually demonstrate how little you actually understand about it and its people.

Al

Not speaking about Vorpal here but in general.
Britain is a divided country, very few have any idea how the other half lives.
The wealthy are pretty unaware (or unconcerned about) the conditions for the poor in this country and would be horrified to see the immigrants rendered that low, being unaware of what it is like at the bottom in the UK.

Freddie
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby Freddie » 19 Oct 2015, 9:42pm

Would they really though? I thought the whole point about the very wealthy harping on about all the benefits of mass immigration is because they themselves benefit unilaterally; they won't be put out of a job, have to fight for their children's education (in a school where 50 different first languages are spoken) and so on. They reap all the benefits of mass immigration, cheap nannies, cleaners, exotic restaurants, more people fighting over stagnant wages and if things get a bit too diverse (too much crime, too many people, a more hostile environment), then they just up sticks to somewhere less diverse. If things become like parts of South Africa, they can always move into gated communities with security.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby al_yrpal » 19 Oct 2015, 9:45pm

But..many of the so called wealthy have been poor and underprivelidged. Been there, done that. Some of us have been bombed out and lost everything been on rations into our teens but studied worked saved and succeeded against all the odds. And most want to protect what they have and not see our country turned into a scroungers paradise. There are two sides to every coin.

Al
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beardy
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby beardy » 19 Oct 2015, 9:50pm

then they just up sticks to somewhere less diverse

The hardest, toughest, poorest, most violent neighbourhoods that I have lived in were not diverse, they were all white. I have also lived in many friendly, safe racially diverse areas, if they were not safe then they would never have become racially diverse in the first place.
Poverty is the problem not cultural diversity.

beardy
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby beardy » 19 Oct 2015, 9:56pm

al_yrpal wrote:But..many of the so called wealthy have been poor and underprivelidged. Been there, done that. Some of us have been bombed out and lost everything been on rations into our teens but studied worked saved and succeeded against all the odds. And most want to protect what they have and not see our country turned into a scroungers paradise. There are two sides to every coin.

Al


To succeed against all odds implies that actually the majority will fail in the endeavour, despite their study, work (and if lucky enough, saving) as the odds are against them. Which means that they then become the scroungers in a scrounger's paradise.

irc
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby irc » 19 Oct 2015, 9:56pm

Psamathe wrote:I agree. Whilst there might be the physical land to build more houses, things like a reliable water supply become more of a concern in some areas of the country (particularly with the changes from Climate Change). Even the Environment Agency has started to raise the question about desalination plants!


What changes from climate change? I think we can agree water isn't a problem in Scotland. As for England? Rainfall long term trends are pretty flat. No evidence of less rain.

rainfall.png


https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpre ... and-wales/

Whether or not increased population has resulted in water shortages because the extra demand has not been met by building more reservoirs to store the rain is another question and one more cost people don't mention when suggesting unlimited immigration.

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bovlomov
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby bovlomov » 19 Oct 2015, 10:08pm

al_yrpal wrote:But..many of the so called wealthy have been poor and underprivelidged.

Isn't social mobility in decline? You've lived through a golden age, but the young and poor aren't so lucky.

Freddie
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby Freddie » 19 Oct 2015, 10:10pm

al_yrpal wrote:Some of us have been bombed out and lost everything been on rations into our teens but studied worked saved and succeeded against all the odds.
Though I don't want to diminish your achievement, you have to admit that you are part of a lucky generation. Yes, rationing and the immediate post-war era was no cakewalk, but compare the ability for a gifted or talented child to rise to top in your era to now. A gifted child doesn't even have a grammar school to go any more, because they were considered to convey an unfair advantage, but intelligent or talented children from working class backgrounds have not had it worse since prior to WW2. This compounded by an influx of pupils who have to be taught lessons, whilst having little knowledge of English. Every native speaking child's education in such an environment will suffer, because the teaching rate is set by those who have difficulty comprehending the language. However great the odds were for you, they are now several times greater still, some progress!

beardy wrote:Poverty is the problem not cultural diversity.
Well, that is pretty anecdotal. You say poverty is the problem, yet many small seaside towns with poor white folk have far fewer crimes per capita than the more diverse parts of larger towns and cities, so how do we square that circle? There was a program on the BBC with Trevor Phillips recently stating that young black men from the same estates as young men white men in London and other metropolitan areas commit far more knife crime, mostly on one another. It'd be nice to get to the bottom of the problem, rather than pretend it does not exist. The problem, to my mind, comes from connections to Jamaican yardie and American gang culture, connections that white boys from the same areas are influenced by far less keenly. Culture informs everything, for good or ill, to pretend it makes no difference to a person's values and actions is absurd.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby al_yrpal » 19 Oct 2015, 10:18pm

bovlomov wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:But..many of the so called wealthy have been poor and underprivelidged.

Isn't social mobility in decline? You've lived through a golden age, but the young and poor aren't so lucky.


I think there are more far better opportunities to better yourself these days, it there on a plate for the taking IF you are prepared to graft. The blot on the landscape in Britain is housing and the degredation of overcrowding, something mass immigration is making much worse. Thats my concern.

Al
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beardy
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby beardy » 19 Oct 2015, 10:21pm

Freddie wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Some of us have been bombed out and lost everything been on rations into our teens but studied worked saved and succeeded against all the odds.
Though I don't want to diminish your achievement, you have to admit that you are part of a lucky generation. Yes, rationing and the immediate post-war era was no cakewalk, but compare the ability for a gifted or talented child to rise to top in your era to now. A gifted child doesn't even have a grammar school to go any more, because they were considered to convey an unfair advantage, but intelligent or talented children from working class backgrounds have not had it worse since prior to WW2. This compounded by an influx of pupils who have to be taught lessons, whilst having little knowledge of English. Every native speaking child's education in such an environment will suffer, because the teaching rate is set by those who have difficulty comprehending the language. However great the odds were for you, they are now several times greater still, some progress!

beardy wrote:Poverty is the problem not cultural diversity.
Well, that is pretty anecdotal. You say poverty is the problem, yet many small seaside towns with poor white folk have far fewer crimes per capita than the more diverse parts of larger towns and cities, so how do we square that circle? There was a program on the BBC with Trevor Phillips recently stating that young black men from the same estates as young men white men in London and other metropolitan areas commit far more knife crime, mostly on one another. It'd be nice to get to the bottom of the problem, rather than pretend it does not exist. The problem, to my mind, comes from connections to Jamaican yardie and American gang culture, connections that white boys from the same areas are influenced by far less keenly. Culture informs everything, for good or ill, to pretend it makes no difference to a person's values and actions is absurd.

There is your answer, you cant go around causing trouble as easily in a small community where you lack the anonymity of numbers. You have to face the consequences when everybody knows everybody.

Psamathe
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby Psamathe » 19 Oct 2015, 10:23pm

irc wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I agree. Whilst there might be the physical land to build more houses, things like a reliable water supply become more of a concern in some areas of the country (particularly with the changes from Climate Change). Even the Environment Agency has started to raise the question about desalination plants!


What changes from climate change? I think we can agree water isn't a problem in Scotland. As for England? Rainfall long term trends are pretty flat. No evidence of less rain.

rainfall.png


https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpre ... and-wales/

Whether or not increased population has resulted in water shortages because the extra demand has not been met by building more reservoirs to store the rain is another question and one more cost people don't mention when suggesting unlimited immigration.

So you have to find space for reservoirs, sewage works, pumping stations, etc. (all of which use energy as well). East Anglia is pretty dry already and climate change is expected to mean lower summer rainfall. Building on more land will increase run-off. It all add to space taken up against "we can fit more houses in ...". Infrastructure is a big problem with increased population. 6 houses were built in my village a few years ago and the people who purchased them were getting quite frustrated 6 months after moving in as they still did not have telephone lines. Each winter one of the two roads into the village gets flooded as the sewers flood and we get raw sewage flooding the road !! Of course the utility services should sort it out but there is no real profit compared to the costs so it does not get done.

Ian

Freddie
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby Freddie » 19 Oct 2015, 10:29pm

Beardy, that is a partial answer, but not a complete one. People in smaller communities don't just not steal, rob or commit other crimes because they are worried they are more easily found out. They do it because they have more feeling towards their fellow man, this is informed not just by living in a smaller community, but by living in a civilised monoculture, where everyone is working to the same set of rules.

Furthermore, your reply doesn't explain why white boys from rough estates in London are rather less likely to stab someone than their black cohorts.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Is Britain full?

Postby Ben@Forest » 19 Oct 2015, 10:40pm

Vorpal wrote:If we built more energy efficient housing and learned to be less wasteful, Britain could absorb many more people than the proposed numbers of refugees without significant impact on the environment. That's probably true of most Western countries.

If Britain is full, we'd better not let any expatriates return, either.


Remember net migration into the UK already runs at 100,000 a year, that's a new Birmingham every 11 years. Unlike emigrants who leave for a new life somewhere expats (who leave for specific jobs or retirement) almost always come back eventually anyway.

And you're still not thinking outside the human box. We can build more efficient housing but that also needs more transport, utilities and recreational infrastructure. That will have an impact upon bird or mammal or amphibian numbers however efficiently it is built. I've posted here before that anyone who thinks we can take an ever-increasing population cannot, on principle, complain about HS2, a third runway at Heathrow or a new nuclear power station, because we're going to need them. Our natural world will become ever more contained and threatened.