English votes for English laws

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Lawrie9
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English votes for English laws

Postby Lawrie9 » 22 Oct 2015, 10:26pm

Seems like only the English MP's will get to vote on laws only affectng England and who can disagree with that. I guess they will have to some pool tables and an amusement arcade in Westminster to occupy the Scottish and Welsh MP's while the debates only to do with England go on.
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DaveP
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby DaveP » 22 Oct 2015, 10:52pm

Naturally enough it will be English MPs who will determine that an issue is English /Welsh only.

I wonder how long before that becomes controversial....
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby [XAP]Bob » 23 Oct 2015, 7:48am

It fairly clear - issues which are devolved will be voted on by the respective parliaments.

Now we either need to dissolve the Welsh assembly and Scottish Parliament in favour of a couple of big meeting rooms in Westminster or start an English Parliament somewhere that isn't London.
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Young@Heart
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby Young@Heart » 23 Oct 2015, 7:57am

The Scots MPs have had a self imposed moratorium on voting English only issues and have exercised this abstention for many years now. Just some more tragic flag waving before they try and force EU/Out referendum down the gullet of the British public.

A referendum almost no one wants and even less are interested in. Political pundits predict a lowest ever turn out for it. I feel sorry for the Scots, because it's clear they have no appetite to leave EU. Probably their best opportunity to secure sessattion from the UK. I'll be voting they take Cumbria with em.

#Cue tirades from the usual rank and file of English Nationalists...
Last edited by Young@Heart on 23 Oct 2015, 8:04am, edited 3 times in total.

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Paulatic
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English votes for English laws

Postby Paulatic » 23 Oct 2015, 7:58am

Edit as Y@H got in before me, my post was referring to Bob

That would be the fairest way.


Get rid of the Lords, have three devolved governments and Westminster as the upper house.

As it is all I see is a supposedly unionist party pushing us, in Scotland, further and further into independence.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby Tangled Metal » 23 Oct 2015, 8:04am

Time for a proper, grown up conversation about a federalist structure. No screaming Nats with self interest just a commission to give fair and equal representation to the people that's applied equally around the union. No patchwork of rights and devolution to suit only those who have shouted the loudest to a party that also benefited by listening to them. In case you'd not b realised I'm talking Blair's lot starting the current devolution mess.

BTW the national parliament locations are very clear for most but where would you put the English parliament when it eventually happens? London would have been the logical as it has always had the status as capital of England even before the union. Apart from old Sarum perhaps. It would be a wonderful opportunity to change England by moving the administrative capital away from the financial one.

Young@Heart
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby Young@Heart » 23 Oct 2015, 8:13am

The problem with English votes for English Laws is that it's the Parliament of Great Britain. With 59 Scottish MPs (almost 10% of the total number of MPs) who wouldn't feel rigthly aggrieved at such a cynical proposal. The last time I looked we were still a United kingdom. Which means I can travel and work and vote anywhere in the British Isles I desire and no one to impede me.

This likely hastens the next Scottish referendum on an exit by about three years. Foot: shot in.

Here's a handy list of all those pesky Scottish MPs, and every single one a British Citizen with exactly the same rights and privileges as you and I:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... E2%80%9315

pwa
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby pwa » 23 Oct 2015, 9:05am

Here in Wales we get a bit peeved with the way that the position of Wales is almost always left out of discussions. You would think that it is all about Scotland and England. Even the Scots leave Wales out of it. For the record, the proposal is for English Votes for English Laws, English and Welsh Votes for English and Welsh Laws, and UK Votes for UK Laws. It is good in principle but it gets messy when you look at the detail.

Wales is a small country with no big towns in the central area, and people living around the Welsh Marches are much closer to hospitals in English towns like Hereford and Shrewsbury than to their nearest Welsh hospitals. So Wales has provision arrangements (money changes hands) with English health boards. All very practical. But what this means is that some Welsh MPs have constituents who have a real interest in the way that English hospitals are run. So are English NHS matters purely English or English / Welsh? On the whole I think I am for the changes, but I'm sure it won't be simple and there will be problems.

Ben@Forest
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby Ben@Forest » 23 Oct 2015, 9:23am

DaveP wrote:Naturally enough it will be English MPs who will determine that an issue is English /Welsh only.

No - it's the Speaker who will determine that. And already the Speaker's Office and civil servants determine what legislation affects what various parts of the UK before it is debated and voted on anyway.

And of course there will be no votes in the House just by English or English/Welsh MPs anyway - there will be a grand committee of said MPs who can veto such legislation before it gets to the House (which will mean they'll go away and amend it and bring it back - normal parliamentary process). Then it will be voted on by ALL MPs.

It's a curious thing that the SNP are 'worried' that this lead to the break up of the Union when that's what they want. And even more curious that there are people who think that the Scottish MPs should have a say in matters which are devolved in their own country. The Scots voted for devolution, they got it, why should they determine what happens in Middlesbrough or Manchester?

Young@Heart
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby Young@Heart » 23 Oct 2015, 9:29am

Because it's STILL a British Parliament and last time I looked a UNITED Kingdom. Or has London and the southeest magically partitioned itself while I wasn't looking :lol:

Ben@Forest
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby Ben@Forest » 23 Oct 2015, 9:32am

Young@Heart wrote:Because it's STILL a British Parliament and last time I looked a UNITED Kingdom. Or has London and the southeest magically partitioned itself while I wasn't looking


And that's why all MPs will vote on the proposed legislation.

Psamathe
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby Psamathe » 23 Oct 2015, 11:35am

Paulatic wrote:...
Get rid of the Lords, have three devolved governments and Westminster as the upper house.
...

I agree about devolved governments. The dogs breakfast the Conservatives have contrived is just madness. If we are going to have devolved governments all the "regions" should have such governments and all should have the same devolved powers. A slight aspect that might not work so well is that within England there is significant variation in different regions so just the one devolved government for England might not work well as it would probably end-up a devolved government for London/South East with everybody else being irrelevant (might not be so bad if the devolved Parliament moved to e.g. Newcastle).

The Lords is a different matter. I strongly disagree with the way the Lords are populated (the ultimate in mateocracy). But having a 2nd house that is not under the same pressure to get re-elected in a few years does provide a good moderating influence on the government. Now is a good example with them being set to reject the Tax Credit cuts - not as an outright rejection but with the aims to have the government look at better ways to avoid the terrible impacts on the hardest hit (most vulnerable). So I'm in favour of a 2nd house but it needs to be less "party-aligned" and even maybe "less political" (i.e. not a count of numbers supporting Conservatives or Labour, but more a group of people providing oversight on proposed legislation in the interests of the country) - which is something I can't see any of the political parties doing. An elected House of Lords would mean more Conservative/Labour/Lib Dem political campaigns to get their people in ... And I don't know the answer (but as the politicians would never do it, any answer I might dream-up would be dead in the water anyway).

Ian

Ben@Forest
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby Ben@Forest » 23 Oct 2015, 11:48am

Psamathe wrote:I agree about devolved governments. The dogs breakfast the Conservatives have contrived is just madness. If we are going to have devolved governments all the "regions" should have such governments and all should have the same devolved powers.


We don't have devolved governments. We have one devolved government. The Northern Irish and Welsh bodies are assemblies. Also here in the NE we rejected a regional assembly in 2004. People don't want more governmental structures.

In the old 'if I were in charge for a day scenario' I would make it law that we spend no more of our budget than we currently proportionally spend on government. For any new body another body would have to disappear or be reduced in members/power/cost. I've not seen the figures for a while but since 1997 our spending on politicians has gone up - does anyone really want that?

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NUKe
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby NUKe » 23 Oct 2015, 12:00pm

Paulatic wrote:Edit as Y@H got in before me, my post was referring to Bob

That would be the fairest way.


Get rid of the Lords, have three devolved governments and Westminster as the upper house.

As it is all I see is a supposedly unionist party pushing us, in Scotland, further and further into independence.

I saw an article recently in which the author suggested further devolution of England, splitting effectively into the old saxon kingdoms of Mercia Anglia, Northumbria etc. The rational was quite sound this gives us local governments over populations about the size of Norway. . Westminster is then only a thin veneer over the top. Was an interesting prospect
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27731725
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Young@Heart
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Re: English votes for English laws

Postby Young@Heart » 23 Oct 2015, 1:19pm

NUKe wrote:
Paulatic wrote:Edit as Y@H got in before me, my post was referring to Bob

That would be the fairest way.


Get rid of the Lords, have three devolved governments and Westminster as the upper house.

As it is all I see is a supposedly unionist party pushing us, in Scotland, further and further into independence.

I saw an article recently in which the author suggested further devolution of England, splitting effectively into the old saxon kingdoms of Mercia Anglia, Northumbria etc. The rational was quite sound this gives us local governments over populations about the size of Norway. . Westminster is then only a thin veneer over the top. Was an interesting prospect
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27731725


I can't see those particular turkeys voting for Christmas...