EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

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pete75
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby pete75 » 7 Mar 2016, 8:18pm

AlaninWales wrote:Experts, pressure groups, vested interests and FEAR campaigning: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/06/john-longworth-resigns-as-commerce-boss-over-brexit


fear campaigning? At least half the out campaign seems to focus on fear of immigrants and immigration. One thing the outers haven't mentioned so far is just how they propose to round up some 2 million plus EU immigrants for deportation. They say they have no current plans to do this but they will have if they win, oust Cameron and our new political masters are the likes of Peter Bone, Bill Cash, Michael Gove, David Davies and Boris Johnson.

cc1085
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby cc1085 » 7 Mar 2016, 10:27pm

I remember you guys voted to stay in the EU in the last referendum in '75 I think. England and Ireland were joined to Europe until the Storegga Slides of 8 thousand years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storegga_Slide. If that hadn't happened then we would still be part of mainland Europe. Illegal migrants walked to England and Ireland from Europe and all originally came to Europe from Africa. Of course it wasn't illegal then as the land was joined and you just walked. If there was a referendum here in Ireland I would definitely vote to leave. The EU saddled the tiny island of Ireland with 42% of the entire Eurpoean bank debt which Irish people had nothing to do with and didn't cause in the first place. We all should have taken Icelands lead and jailed the bankers and bailed out the citizens, but our politicians were afraid to lose their fat salaries and pensions. Now Iceland is fine but the people of Ireland are forced to pay failed PRIVATE investors EIGHT THOUSAND MILLION POUNDS per year for all time. Get out now.

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Mick F
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby Mick F » 8 Mar 2016, 8:00am

The way I see it, there are two reasons to stay IN.
kwackers wrote:At least 'in' we get some input into what the rules are.

The second reason is fear of the unknown if we go OUT.

In the interest of a balance .........
Two reasons to go OUT:
We're better off alone and be able to set our own agendas and rules.
On the whole, British people don't feel European.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby kwackers » 8 Mar 2016, 8:29am

Mick F wrote:In the interest of a balance .........
Two reasons to go OUT:
We're better off alone and be able to set our own agendas and rules.
On the whole, British people don't feel European.

First point is supposition. You don't know.
We still have to deal with Europe, we'll still have to agree to their rules when agreeing trade, it's nonsense to assume we can dictate anything. Half of our trade is with them, whilst only a fraction of their trade is with us - who's the strongest? You can't make a good deal with someone who knows you have no alternative.

Second point I suspect is mainly true of old fogies. It's no surprise to me that pro Europeans tend to be younger and better educated than the anti's.
Having said that I'm a fogie and I feel quite European, in fact I wish as a country we were as forward thinking as most of them seem to be. Valuing quality of life over economic growth? I'll have some of that thanks.

TonyR
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby TonyR » 8 Mar 2016, 9:09am

Mick F wrote:Two reasons to go OUT:
We're better off alone and be able to set our own agendas and rules.
On the whole, British people don't feel European.


Wishful thinking. We live and work in a global world not Little England. The world sets the agenda and rules. You want to export to Europe you conform to the EU rules. You want to sell to the USA, you conform to the US rules. You can pretend we can put a wall up around and live in happy isolation within it but that's the way to becoming a third world economy.

reohn2
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby reohn2 » 8 Mar 2016, 9:11am

Mick F wrote:The way I see it, there are two reasons to stay IN.
kwackers wrote:At least 'in' we get some input into what the rules are.

Which is a better position to be in than trying to deal with the EU from the outside where we have no input or influence on any EU ruling,on trade or anything else FTM,human rights is a classic example.

The second reason is fear of the unknown if we go OUT.

It isn't a fear of the unknown for the reasons of trade alone we know we'll have to trade with the EU without any say in how it's run,and if we don't trade with it we'll have to find other markets,markets we haven't even begun to explore.
Immigration(a key issue in a lot of the outers minds)will still be needed to make up our workforce as has been pointed out on more than a few times on this thread.
People legislation,workers rights,human rights,etc are to the forefront of EU thinking and provision.Frankly I don't trust UK governments keep up such high standards unless there's a radical change and shift back to centre/centre left politics in the UK.

In the interest of a balance .........
Two reasons to go OUT:
We're better off alone and be able to set our own agendas and rules.

Alone is not a good word in world economics,more so when coupled with the words 'better off'.
When connected with the words 'own agendas and rules' it spells 'isolation' and thoughts of 'we're the centre of things'.
The words 'dream' and 'on' spring more readily to mind,and the phrase 'looking to the past through rose tinted spectacles'
It's a dream of greatness and Rule Britainnia,colonialism,Empires and no setting sun.....

On the whole, British people don't feel European

It's because we're odd,because we still cling to the past and look west,pretending to see the promised land over the horizon,when Europe is next door,so close we can almost walk there,in the past the UK was populated by Europeans and still is.
We need to get through our skulls that we are Europeans and that Europe poses no threat to our well being,when we have a say in how it's run,if we don't we'll will most definitely be 'alone' and more than likely with BoJo or Osborne as PM :shock:
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bovlomov
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby bovlomov » 8 Mar 2016, 9:31am

TonyR wrote:You can pretend we can put a wall up around and live in happy isolation within it but that's the way to becoming a third world economy.

Why does no one make that case? To be poor but free! If you value liberty over comfort; if sovereignty and Magna Carta are your thing, surely the sacrifice is worth it (I've almost persuaded myself just by typing those words).

But all we hear is the least convincing reason to leave: i.e. the economic benefits.

Nationalists all over Europe are doing well, not be talking about the economy but by harking back to a romantic past (when we were all white). King Alfred, Boudica, Lancelot, Horatio Nelson, Arthur Wellesley, Winston Churchill... ...where are you?

pwa
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby pwa » 8 Mar 2016, 9:33am

pete75 wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:Experts, pressure groups, vested interests and FEAR campaigning: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/06/john-longworth-resigns-as-commerce-boss-over-brexit


fear campaigning? At least half the out campaign seems to focus on fear of immigrants and immigration. One thing the outers haven't mentioned so far is just how they propose to round up some 2 million plus EU immigrants for deportation. They say they have no current plans to do this but they will have if they win, oust Cameron and our new political masters are the likes of Peter Bone, Bill Cash, Michael Gove, David Davies and Boris Johnson.


I think you are raising an issue that doesn't exist. The OUT campaign does not involve a plan to repatriate those who are already established here. It does involve a plan to control the flow of future immigration. Even there, nobody is proposing that no immigration will be allowed from the EU. The idea that we will be rounding up large numbers of East Europeans for deportation is fantasy.

reohn2
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby reohn2 » 8 Mar 2016, 9:40am

bovlomov wrote:.........Nationalists all over Europe are doing well, not be talking about the economy but by harking back to a romantic past (when we were all white). King Alfred, Boudica, Lancelot, Horatio Nelson, Arthur Wellesley, Winston Churchill... ...where are you?


You forgot Margaret Thatcher :roll:
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pwa
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby pwa » 8 Mar 2016, 9:45am

TonyR wrote:
Mick F wrote:Two reasons to go OUT:
We're better off alone and be able to set our own agendas and rules.
On the whole, British people don't feel European.


Wishful thinking. We live and work in a global world not Little England. The world sets the agenda and rules. You want to export to Europe you conform to the EU rules. You want to sell to the USA, you conform to the US rules. You can pretend we can put a wall up around and live in happy isolation within it but that's the way to becoming a third world economy.


It is possible to conduct Free Trade and to adhere to internationally accepted standards without accepting the automatic right of citizens of other nations to enter our labour market without controls. The problem is that the EU has resolutely moved from being a Free Trade zone to something on the way to being a single state, all the time ignoring the fact that the UK is not comfortable with that. The EU has had decades to take on board our concerns and has not done so. I see that as a failing of the EU, and I think the EU is incapable of finding a solution that will give the UK a role we feel happy with. Leaving is the right thing for the UK and for the EU.

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meic
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby meic » 8 Mar 2016, 9:50am

bovlomov wrote:
TonyR wrote:You can pretend we can put a wall up around and live in happy isolation within it but that's the way to becoming a third world economy.

Why does no one make that case? To be poor but free! If you value liberty over comfort; if sovereignty and Magna Carta are your thing, surely the sacrifice is worth it (I've almost persuaded myself just by typing those words).

But all we hear is the least convincing reason to leave: i.e. the economic benefits.

Nationalists all over Europe are doing well, not be talking about the economy but by harking back to a romantic past . King Alfred, Boudica, Lancelot, Horatio Nelson, Arthur Wellesley, Winston Churchill... ...where are you?

That works for me! :D :mrgreen:

I will be voting to remain as a proud Nationalist.
Yma o Hyd

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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby Psamathe » 8 Mar 2016, 9:57am

I surprised myself this morning in that as somebody who was strongly supportive of staying in the EU I am now reconsidering.
The news that it looks likely that Turkey's membership application is to be speed through (so they will help Germany or rather Merkel with some action on migrant/refugee problems to save her political career).

And I would be strongly against turkey joining the EU given the way their government behaves (at least strongly against Turkey currently joining an EU the UK was a member of). I seem to recall (maybe incorrectly) that back in the days when Turkey's government was more "moderate" the EU still found it unacceptable, so how we can now be considering a far more oppressive government for membership ...

Ian

beardy
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby beardy » 8 Mar 2016, 10:09am

So you think an Independent UK is going to keep more distant from Turkey for moral reasons?

kwackers
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby kwackers » 8 Mar 2016, 10:12am

pwa wrote: I see that as a failing of the EU, and I think the EU is incapable of finding a solution that will give the UK a role we feel happy with. Leaving is the right thing for the UK and for the EU.

And having left then what? Refuse to trade with them?
You'll have no option, we can't afford not to, they know that and we'll accept similar (if not worse) conditions than we currently have whilst patting ourselves on the back for having "shown Johnny Foreigner" a thing or two...

pwa
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby pwa » 8 Mar 2016, 10:22am

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote: I see that as a failing of the EU, and I think the EU is incapable of finding a solution that will give the UK a role we feel happy with. Leaving is the right thing for the UK and for the EU.

And having left then what? Refuse to trade with them?
You'll have no option, we can't afford not to, they know that and we'll accept similar (if not worse) conditions than we currently have whilst patting ourselves on the back for having "shown Johnny Foreigner" a thing or two...


You misrepresent my views. I want Free Trade (a concept as old as the hills) but not Free Movement of Labour. Trade with the EU will continue. Nobody says otherwise. The EU without the UK will need that, and so will the UK. The "Johnny Foreigner" attitude is mostly a figment of your imagination.

I would be dismayed if we ended up in an EU that included Turkey. That would be the absolute end.