EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

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reohn2
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby reohn2 » 9 Mar 2016, 9:32am

Vorpal wrote:
TonyR wrote:
georgew wrote:I confess that I am confused.......as Prince Charles is the son of immigrant parents..does this mean he is likely to be repatriated...tell me it isn't so? :?


Since we are almost all of Angle or Saxon origin with a touch of Norman, perhaps we should all be repatriated Germany. The few true Brits can then ride around the country cheering themselves in their Boudica chariots.

Then who will fight the Vikings?!?


I'll see your Anglo(Merkal) Saxons,Normans and Vikings and raise you original Africans.
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pwa
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby pwa » 9 Mar 2016, 9:47am

reohn2 wrote:Over the last few days I've been trying to imagine I'm sat on the fence in the EU issue.
There's a couple of things that disturb me,I'm always suspicious of politicians,which to my mind is a healthy attitude.
The politicians in favour of coming out the 'Brexit' camp are the more right to ultra rightwing,variety,who's emphasis seems to be on 'freedom'(?)and who I distrust the most,the Gove's,BoJo's and Farage's of the spectrum,otherwise known as weasel themselves and weasel trainers.
And who's ideas of freedom aren't my ideas of freedom.
I'd need some serious realignment of my political and moral compass before I believe a word that trips of their tongues.
The other point is,where do these people imagine the UK to go to get a better deal/lot when out of the EU and in a world suffering economic depression.
Another issue is immigration,which IMO looms great in people's minds.To my mind people only emigrate for a better life,that better life has to include work,no work no point moving.
There'll of course be an element of 'chancers' there always is,but they're few in number and I think the UK should have the right to ask them to leave should they not have a means of self support.
I take on board PWA's point about the lack of housing,but if the government were serious about the problem it would do what was done after the war and build prefabs,forcing builders to stop sitting on land limit their profits and build what's needed to alleviate the problem,it would also stop foreign investors buying up whole apartment blocks in prime central city locations to sit on until property prices increase to make a suitable profit for them,without them even setting foot in the country.

Just some thoughts on what I see as the main points the wo/man on the street are thinking about.


I suspect we are arriving at different conclusions, but I like your analysis. The problem I have with population increase is not simply that there are not enough homes at present. I hate the fact that our land is becoming more densely populated, with countryside being built on and traffic increasing. My interest in cycling goes hand in hand with my love of open spaces, and I believe that as those open spaces recede our quality of life deteriorates. No economic prosperity can compensate for that. I know some point to the Highlands of Scotland and say that we have lots of open spaces left, but if you live in Bristol, Reading or Stevenage that is not much consolation. Our current open door situation lets in perfectly decent, industrious people who deserve our respect, but they and their young families are adding to our population in a way that I find very troubling. If the EU were willing to address this issue I would be happy to stay in. But they are not.

I don't care which politicians speak for the OUT campaign. I don't ally myself to Farage or Boris.

Psamathe
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby Psamathe » 9 Mar 2016, 9:50am

pwa wrote:....
As you already know, I want Westminster to determine who is entitled to come to work in the UK. I suggest you be a little less offensive.

Maybe I'm getting too cynical but I can't see that happening whatever the outcome of the referendum. If we leave and want a free trade agreement I'm sure that free movement will be a required clause. If we leave and don't have a free trade agreement then Westminster will be told what to do by lobbyists from big business. NFU (which seems to control DEFRA) will get its minimum wage farm workers, business will get whoever it wants (cheaper that UK staff), colleges will get their students, etc. And a fair indication of the control over immigration Westminster is capable of achieving is from the non-EU immigration. Over 50% of net immigration is from outside the EU and despite many government promises to control, it, nothing happens. I interpret that as Westminster being incapable of controlling immigration. And I also suspect (though this is my opinion and NOT fact) that EU people working in the UK will probably work here for a bit and then return home (i.e. make some money and go home) - not everybody but a high proportion; whereas many immigrants from outside the EU are moving here permanently (but that is a guess and I've not even checked with Google).

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby Psamathe » 9 Mar 2016, 9:58am

reohn2 wrote:...
I take on board PWA's point about the lack of housing,but if the government were serious about the problem it would do what was done after the war and build prefabs,forcing builders to stop sitting on land limit their profits and build what's needed to alleviate the problem,it would also stop foreign investors buying up whole apartment blocks in prime central city locations to sit on until property prices increase to make a suitable profit for them,without them even setting foot in the country.....

(A bit off-topic), it would also force the developers to build more affordable homes/social housing. At the moment far too much building is at the luxury end of the market as that is where the big profits are. Small houses for lower income sector does not achieve the big profits developers have come to expect. But instead of forcing developers to develop more of the housing society needs it is actually allowing developers to reduce the previous levels (e.g. to allow developers to appeal the level of social housing in a development when ...). Plus it would focus of building housing for people to live in (what we are short of) rather than coming up with schemes for people to buy and own. 1st priority is get people somewhere of descent standard to live in.

And, although a bit off-topic, to me it is another indication that Westminster is not acting in the interests of the population or electorate but acting for the elite mega wealthy few. And I feel that the EU is less subject to falling over themselves to accommodate the wealthy self-interested lobbying that so many of the big companies do. Of course the EU does and I'm sure people can quote loads of cases (e.g. Vehicle Emission Controls) but I think that whilst the EU can suffer a bit, it seems that these days Westminster is totally controlled by wealthy self-interest.

Ian
Last edited by Psamathe on 9 Mar 2016, 10:40am, edited 1 time in total.

pete75
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby pete75 » 9 Mar 2016, 10:01am

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:. The OUT supporters include many who would never vote for UKIP or the Tories, so please don't picture us as Farage supporters. You underestimate the OUT camp if you see it as a fringe body of curtain twitchers, afraid of foreigners and dreaming of a partly fictional glorious past. I am generally left of centre, and I believe we can create a place for ourselves in the world that is new, and that still includes strong ties with the EU, but managing some of our affairs ourselves.


We need to leave the EU to manage some of our affairs ourselves???? We already do manage most of them ourselves. Like marny of the outers you seem to be under the impression than most of our laws are made in Brussels. This is far from the case and I suggest you do a little research into the matter.


As you already know, I want Westminster to determine who is entitled to come to work in the UK. I suggest you be a little less offensive.


Offensive - I was merely pointing out we already do manage most of our affairs ourselves and we don't need to leave the EU to be able to manage "some of our affairs" ourselves.

Yes I know you are anti EU because of your dislike of immigration you've said that often enough and we've got the message.

beardy
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby beardy » 9 Mar 2016, 10:12am

Though experience teaches us that once the vote is over and we have decided to stay or remain, it will make little difference to most things and that includes immigration.
Westminster liked to scapegoat EU for the immigration (when they didnt expect any referendum) but Farage backed them into a corner. The vote will determine EU membership but it will not cut down on immigration, you will get that either way the referendum goes, so long as people still vote Tory, Labour or SNP. If you want to cut immigration, you will have to go the whole way and vote UKIP (and I am not too convinced that they would stick to their policies once elected :lol: ).

kwackers
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby kwackers » 9 Mar 2016, 10:13am

Psamathe wrote:At the moment far too much building is at the luxury end of the market as that is where the big profits are.

I'm not sure that's really true anymore is it?
My understanding is that builders have to build a mix. So the 'village' they've built near me has a number of £500k 4/5/6 bedroom detached houses but it also has a lot of semis, terraced houses and flats.

I'm not sure what the rules are but everywhere I've seen a plot of land being developed with 'prestige' houses on it there are always flats and other houses.

pwa
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby pwa » 9 Mar 2016, 10:14am

Psamathe wrote:
pwa wrote:....
As you already know, I want Westminster to determine who is entitled to come to work in the UK. I suggest you be a little less offensive.

Maybe I'm getting too cynical but I can't see that happening whatever the outcome of the referendum. If we leave and want a free trade agreement I'm sure that free movement will be a required clause. If we leave and don't have a free trade agreement then Westminster will be told what to do by lobbyists from big business. NFU (which seems to control DEFRA) will get its minimum wage farm workers, business will get whoever it wants (cheaper that UK staff), colleges will get their students, etc. And a fair indication of the control over immigration Westminster is capable of achieving is from the non-EU immigration. Over 50% of net immigration is from outside the EU and despite many government promises to control, it, nothing happens. I interpret that as Westminster being incapable of controlling immigration. And I also suspect (though this is my opinion and NOT fact) that EU people working in the UK will probably work here for a bit and then return home (i.e. make some money and go home) - not everybody but a high proportion; whereas many immigrants from outside the EU are moving here permanently (but that is a guess and I've not even checked with Google).

Ian


I'm sure a lot of what you say is correct, though I do think we could exercise more control over EU immigration than at present. Over the past decade there have been surges of EU immigration interspersed with quieter phases. If we could limit the surges, that would be enough to satisfy me.

I do not believe that the EU would turn their backs on a Free Trade pact with the UK just because we insist on limits to EU immigration. The EU makes a lot of money out of trade with the UK. My German fridge currently has Spanish, Dutch and French produce in it. My son has Belgian beer in a cupboard. I have a German car parked outside the house. I buy EU produce every time I go shopping for groceries.

It is my impression that a lot of non-EU immigration is a result of UK nationals marrying non-UK nationals. Anyone know if that is correct. (A bit OT, perhaps).

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meic
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby meic » 9 Mar 2016, 10:23am

It is my impression that a lot of non-EU immigration is a result of UK nationals marrying non-UK nationals. Anyone know if that is correct. (A bit OT, perhaps).


I can see that there are communities where that is common, on the other hand my community (and family :wink: ) is full of EU immigration from UK nationals marrying non-UK nationals.

My village has mixed with German, Dutch, Danish, Italian, Polish that I can think of, off the top of my head.
Against an Ausie and a Finlander.

In a fortnight I am off to visit an English-Polish couple in Belgium, followed by a French-Welsh couple in France.
I do like the Freedom of Movement (and breeding :mrgreen: ) within the EU.
Yma o Hyd

reohn2
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby reohn2 » 9 Mar 2016, 10:28am

Psamathe wrote:(A bit off-topic), it would also force the developers to build more affordable homes/social housing. At the moment far too much building is at the luxury end of the market as that is where the big profits are. Small houses for lower income sector does not achieve the big profits developers have come to expect. But instead of forcing developers to develop more of the housing society needs it is actually allowing developers to reduce the previous levels (e.g. to allow developers to appeal the level of social housing in a development when ...). Plus it would focus of building housing for people to live in (what we are short of) rather than coming up with schemes for people to buy and own. 1st priority is get people somewhere of descent standard to live in.

And, although a bit off-topic, to me it is another indication that Westminster is not acting in the interests of the population or electorate but acting for the elite mega wealthy few. And I feel that the EU is less subject to falling over themselves to accommodate the wealthy self-interested lobbying that so many of the big companies do. Of course the EU does and I'm sure people can quote loads of cases (e.g. Vehicle Emission Controls) but I think that whilst the EU can suffer a bit, it seems that these days Westminster is totally controlled by wealthy self-interest.

Ian

Spot on IMHO,and by leaving the EU we'd only be more at the mercy of such wealthy heartless money and power collectors and hoarders.
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Psamathe
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby Psamathe » 9 Mar 2016, 10:39am

kwackers wrote:
Psamathe wrote:At the moment far too much building is at the luxury end of the market as that is where the big profits are.

I'm not sure that's really true anymore is it?
My understanding is that builders have to build a mix. So the 'village' they've built near me has a number of £500k 4/5/6 bedroom detached houses but it also has a lot of semis, terraced houses and flats....

I read something a couple of months ago, but sorry, the only source Google will give me is
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3472665/Housing-developers-accused-exploiting-Britain-s-housing-crisis-make-profits-deliberately-slowing-supply-homes.html 2 March 2016 wrote:'Cutting back planning rules has meant the number of affordable homes developers build has halved, and now extraordinary plans in the Housing Bill will let them dispense with building low-cost housing altogether and build starter homes on sale for up to £450,000 instead.'
(so you might have to shower after reading it). I read it in the Guardian.

But also (related)
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/01/starter-homes-affordable-housing-local-councils-england-survey 1 March 2016 wrote:Four in five local councils do not believe that discounted starter homes should be classed as affordable housing, and only 7% feel that they will address the need for affordable homes in their area, according to a survey.


And on the same point (about commercial for profit development not meeting the needs of society - though not my previous point)[quote="http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/01/developers-restricting-supply-of-new-home-to-boost-profits" 1 March 2016]Developers accused of restricting supply of new homes to boost profits[/quote]

But I can't find the article that I originally read as my RSS reader clears out old articles after a week.

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby Psamathe » 9 Mar 2016, 10:55am

pwa wrote:... I do think we could exercise more control over EU immigration than at present. Over the past decade there have been surges of EU immigration interspersed with quieter phases. If we could limit the surges, that would be enough to satisfy me....

My understanding and experience is that the UK is already pretty "open" when it comes to Freedom of Movement (as are other countries). My understanding and experience is that the Freedom of Movement olny technically applies to workers (or people having worked in that country - remaining after working).

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457 wrote:Free Movement - EU nationals
Free movement of workers is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice. EU citizens are entitled to:
    look for a job in another EU country
    work there without needing a work permit
    reside there for that purpose
    stay there even after employment has finished
    enjoy equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax advantages

When I went to work in the Netherlands (permanent contract) I actually had to go and register with the local Police. They required to see my employment contract to confirm it was a permanent position and unfortunately it was a standard job offer and did not use the work permanent. So they stamped my passport with a 1 month temporary stand and I had to get a new contract using the work permanent and that took a few months so I ended-up with a load of 1 month Police stamps in my passport. And the rest of the world does not understand Dutch but does understand the word Police (and similar) and using that passport for travel became a bit of a nightmare because my passport had several Police stamps in it!!

When I went to live in France, technically I was outside the EU freedom of movement (I never bothered to ask, I just brought a house and moved, registered/paid tax, etc.). But that did allow Sarkozy to implement health cover changes to withdraw French state health cover from me as I was outside the "Freedom of Movement".

And when I came back to the UK and needed a minor operation to have a lump removed I had to wait 6 months as I was no longer covered by the NHS (because I had been resident outside the UK). and at the end of the 6 months I had to go to hospital an hour early before the consultant appointment and have an interview and take things like Utility Bills, Council Tax bills, etc., and have an interview to convince them I was now a permanent resident.

Ian

PDQ
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby PDQ » 9 Mar 2016, 11:48am

meic wrote:
It is my impression that a lot of non-EU immigration is a result of UK nationals marrying non-UK nationals. Anyone know if that is correct. (A bit OT, perhaps).


I can see that there are communities where that is common, on the other hand my community (and family :wink: ) is full of EU immigration from UK nationals marrying non-UK nationals.

My village has mixed with German, Dutch, Danish, Italian, Polish that I can think of, off the top of my head.
Against an Ausie and a Finlander.

In a fortnight I am off to visit an English-Polish couple in Belgium, followed by a French-Welsh couple in France.
I do like the Freedom of Movement (and breeding :mrgreen: ) within the EU.


I think the ramifications of this go further.

I believe that this intermingling has led to a greater tolerance and understanding of other cultures.
This is particularly the case within the EU and was one of the reasons it was set up in the first place.

Western Europe is politically, culturally and religiously one of the most tolerant places on earth.
Do not underestimate the worth of this on many different levels.

I, for one, see that as massive plus and privilege in having it as a place to live.

It's not perfect, but at least we (the EU parliament) talk to each other, sometimes in a very constuctive way (which is more than can be said of Westminster).

The alternative of isolation I see as a huge retrograde step.

Psamathe
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby Psamathe » 9 Mar 2016, 11:59am

PDQ wrote:...
I think the ramifications of this go further.

I believe that this intermingling has led to a greater tolerance and understanding of other cultures.
This is particularly the case within the EU and was one of the reasons it was set up in the first place.

Western Europe is politically, culturally and religiously one of the most tolerant places on earth.
Do not underestimate the worth of this on many different levels.

I, for one, see that as massive plus and privilege in having it as a place to live. ....

And, those points are far more important than whether or not we pay Child Benefit to a few people whose children are not in the EU, etc. The EU is a long term benefit yet both the "leave" and the "stay" campaigns seem to be focusing of very short term things and very narrow detail aspects. Maybe it is what our society has become, but we need to look at the bigger picture which is often harder to put into £ or %ages.

Ian

reohn2
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Re: EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

Postby reohn2 » 9 Mar 2016, 12:02pm

PDQ wrote:
I think the ramifications of this go further.

I believe that this intermingling has led to a greater tolerance and understanding of other cultures.
This is particularly the case within the EU and was one of the reasons it was set up in the first place.

Western Europe is politically, culturally and religiously one of the most tolerant places on earth.
Do not underestimate the worth of this on many different levels.

I, for one, see that as massive plus and privilege in having it as a place to live.

It's not perfect, but at least we (the EU parliament) talk to each other, sometimes in a very constuctive way (which is more than can be said of Westminster).

The alternative of isolation I see as a huge retrograde step.

Absolutely spot on.
The problems of 'outism' is one of isolation and increasingly of inward looking nationalism which is prevalent in certain areas of the populous and which isn't only limited to certain strata's(for want of a better word)of society,and leads to suspicion of other cultures and peoples.
As you say the EU isn't perfect,but it's aim is for betterment of all it's members and not just certain members or a strata of it's populations.Which is more than can be said for the Brexit group.
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