EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

[pwa]

I think the ramifications of this go further.

I believe that this intermingling has led to a greater tolerance and understanding of other cultures.
This is particularly the case within the EU and was one of the reasons it was set up in the first place.

Western Europe is politically, culturally and religiously one of the most tolerant places on earth.
Do not underestimate the worth of this on many different levels.

I, for one, see that as massive plus and privilege in having it as a place to live.

It's not perfect, but at least we (the EU parliament) talk to each other, sometimes in a very constuctive way (which is more than can be said of Westminster).

The alternative of isolation I see as a huge retrograde step.

Absolutely spot on.
The problems of 'outism' is one of isolation and increasingly of inward looking nationalism which is prevalent in certain areas of the populous and which isn't only limited to certain strata's(for want of a better word)of society,and leads to suspicion of other cultures and peoples.
As you say the EU isn't perfect,but it's aim is for betterment of all it's members and not just certain members or a strata of it's populations.Which is more than can be said for the Brexit group.

As an OUT supporter I would not want us to become isolationist and inward looking. I don't want us to turn our back on Europe. I want an adjusted relationship, a new partnership. And given the fractious relationship we have had over the years, I think we might even hope for something more amicable. My vision for the future (if we leave) would still have Polish and other East European workers entering our country to work, but numbers would be limited to levels we feel we can handle.

I fear that Brussels is currently so poor at providing good, decisive government that it even makes Westminster look efficient. 28 member states all having to agree is unwieldy in the extreme and the logic of this means that the EU will finish up as, effectively, one state. The Italian finance minister was calling for closer financial union a few days ago. I can see why Italy would want to be tied more closely to the German economy. I'm not clear why the Germans would want to be tied more closely to the Italian economy.

[Freddie]

I don't fully comprehend this new, working definition people of the word 'tolerance'. To tolerate something in the past would be to put up with something, usually something you don't like or that has negative effects. Now it means, somehow, that you are unprejudiced. To be intolerant of things which could be reasonably argued as negative, is to be consider bigoted; at least according to many who use the word tolerant to mean prejudiced or bigoted.

This is why the preservation of accurate language is so important.

To judge something to be negative given reasonable evidence, doesn't make you prejudiced. To be intolerant is not a bad thing, given you have reasonable grounds for it.

"Western Europe is politically, culturally and religiously one of the most tolerant places on earth. Do not underestimate the worth of this on many different levels. "

Quite so, but the EU is no longer just Western European countries, but Eastern European countries also. Soon perhaps to be Asiatic countries too, if Turkey gain entry. The largest numbers of immigration in Europe is from East to West. Westerners don't migrate to other Western countries at the same rate. You are more likely to find Polish migrants than French in the UK and Turkish than British in Germany. So there is, if we look at the numbers, relatively little intermingling of the Western European peoples you are referring to, as compared to large scale migration from East to West.

This notwithstanding the millions of migrants coming from North Africa and elsewhere who will, in time, be given residence in Western European countries, potentially as a gateway to the UK. We already know there are many who would prefer to camp in squalid conditions in France, in the hope of try to illegally cross into the UK, rather than apply for asylum in France, a country so awful, that some British people chose to retire there. Why do they do this? How can we be sure that large numbers of migrants currently claiming asylum in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere won't travel to the UK, once they get residence (it did seem, until very recently at least, more sensible than camping out in France - even if it would take longer to reach the end goal). Over a million more are expected to arrive in Germany alone this year, how many more years will this/can this go on? How long will Germany be able to sustain its welcome?

I think these are reasonable questions, that, as far as I can remember, nobody from the in camp has chosen to answer honestly.I am sorry to spoil the largely one way conversation of the thread, but perhaps someone would be so kind as to answer them, honestly.

How does the political, cultural and religious tolerance of the West help the West, when most migration is from the East and outside of the EU. How does it help if Western Europeans are tolerant, yet they should not impose that others join them in their spirit of tolerance, because that would be some kind of cultural imperialism; we end up with the absurd situation where Westerners must tolerate gross intolerance from others that they would not accept from fellow Westerners or risk being branded intolerant themselves. Why the double standards?

Why is it bad for a country to work for the benefit of its own countrymen before those of anywhere else? What, exactly, is wrong with a nation putting its own interests before those of other nations and peoples? Can anyone name a single country outside of Western Europe that puts the interests of other peoples and nations before those of its own?

[pete75]

Freddie if you would like people to pay attention to your rants try and be a bit less repetitive and a bit more concise. A little less plagiarism of Spectator articles wouldn't come amiss either.

[reohn2]

As an OUT supporter I would not want us to become isolationist and inward looking. I don't want us to turn our back on Europe. I want an adjusted relationship, a new partnership. And given the fractious relationship we have had over the years, I think we might even hope for something more amicable. My vision for the future (if we leave) would still have Polish and other East European workers entering our country to work, but numbers would be limited to levels we feel we can handle.

I don't doubt your sincerity for one moment and understand your outlook,however the people leading Brexit and most of those following their lead have only their own interests at heart and not of the UK or the EU,but mainly are playing on nationalistic xenophobic tendencies of certain sections of the populous,and have only their own interests at heart,which is primarily power and money,theirs is one of self interest.
Their vision for immigrant workers is completely on their terms and the prices.

I fear that Brussels is currently so poor at providing good, decisive government that it even makes Westminster look efficient. 28 member states all having to agree is unwieldy in the extreme and the logic of this means that the EU will finish up as, effectively, one state. The Italian finance minister was calling for closer financial union a few days ago. I can see why Italy would want to be tied more closely to the German economy. I'm not clear why the Germans would want to be tied more closely to the Italian economy.

Your suspicions of German interests could be looked at through the eyes of German reunification and all that Germany went through during that.
And it's offer of work and settlement of Syrian and other middle eastern refugees.
As for decisive government with 28 countries to manage there has to be some give and take and as has been posted by others and myself,nothing's perfect which needs working on.
The alternative isn't a viable one IMHO,and we'll be worse off as a result for reasons given already.

[Freddie]

Pete, you remind me (not for the first time) why I have blocked your posts from view. You rarely give any input save snide remarks; it says more about you than me, I'm afraid. I repeat myself because they are questions begging for answers. Don't bother yourself attempting to answer them or this post, I won't be unblocking your posts to view them in future.

[pete75]

Pete, you remind me (not for the first time) why I have blocked your posts from view. You rarely give any input save snide remarks; it says more about you than me, I'm afraid. I repeat myself because they are questions begging for answers. Don't bother yourself attempting to answer them or this post, I won't be unblocking your posts to view them in future.

Maybe because my last post was an apt comment on your contributions to this debate.

[pete75]

As an OUT supporter I would not want us to become isolationist and inward looking. I don't want us to turn our back on Europe. I want an adjusted relationship, a new partnership. And given the fractious relationship we have had over the years, I think we might even hope for something more amicable. My vision for the future (if we leave) would still have Polish and other East European workers entering our country to work, but numbers would be limited to levels we feel we can handle.

I fear that Brussels is currently so poor at providing good, decisive government that it even makes Westminster look efficient. 28 member states all having to agree is unwieldy in the extreme and the logic of this means that the EU will finish up as, effectively, one state. The Italian finance minister was calling for closer financial union a few days ago. I can see why Italy would want to be tied more closely to the German economy. I'm not clear why the Germans would want to be tied more closely to the Italian economy.

Not an unreasonable point of view if it were to happen in the event of an out vote.However have you taken into account the views of the out lobby in the Conservative party who are likely to oust Cameron and co after an out vote. Their views are different to yours. Many of them dislike EU employment legislation much of which is for the benefit of employees. I doubt much of it will remain even after we've been out for only .

[pwa]

As an OUT supporter I would not want us to become isolationist and inward looking. I don't want us to turn our back on Europe. I want an adjusted relationship, a new partnership. And given the fractious relationship we have had over the years, I think we might even hope for something more amicable. My vision for the future (if we leave) would still have Polish and other East European workers entering our country to work, but numbers would be limited to levels we feel we can handle.

I fear that Brussels is currently so poor at providing good, decisive government that it even makes Westminster look efficient. 28 member states all having to agree is unwieldy in the extreme and the logic of this means that the EU will finish up as, effectively, one state. The Italian finance minister was calling for closer financial union a few days ago. I can see why Italy would want to be tied more closely to the German economy. I'm not clear why the Germans would want to be tied more closely to the Italian economy.

Not an unreasonable point of view if it were to happen in the event of an out vote.However have you taken into account the views of the out lobby in the Conservative party who are likely to oust Cameron and co after an out vote. Their views are different to yours. Many of them dislike EU employment legislation much of which is for the benefit of employees. I doubt much of it will remain even after we've been out for only .

You are saying that we need protecting from our own government. Don't you think that is something best sorted out by us, at a UK level?

[pete75]

As an OUT supporter I would not want us to become isolationist and inward looking. I don't want us to turn our back on Europe. I want an adjusted relationship, a new partnership. And given the fractious relationship we have had over the years, I think we might even hope for something more amicable. My vision for the future (if we leave) would still have Polish and other East European workers entering our country to work, but numbers would be limited to levels we feel we can handle.

I fear that Brussels is currently so poor at providing good, decisive government that it even makes Westminster look efficient. 28 member states all having to agree is unwieldy in the extreme and the logic of this means that the EU will finish up as, effectively, one state. The Italian finance minister was calling for closer financial union a few days ago. I can see why Italy would want to be tied more closely to the German economy. I'm not clear why the Germans would want to be tied more closely to the Italian economy.

Not an unreasonable point of view if it were to happen in the event of an out vote.However have you taken into account the views of the out lobby in the Conservative party who are likely to oust Cameron and co after an out vote. Their views are different to yours. Many of them dislike EU employment legislation much of which is for the benefit of employees. I doubt much of it will remain even after we've been out for only .

You are saying that we need protecting from our own government. Don't you think that is something best sorted out by us, at a UK level?

Hmm of course many in society need protecting from them. The Conservatives are likely to be in power for a while, until 2025 at least and maybe longer after they've gerrymandered constituency boundaries and cut off Labour's source of funding from the unions. Cameron and Osbourn are towards the left of the Conservative party and even they wanted to reduce tax credits and have effectively took away unfair dismissal rights from the non unionised low paid. The right will take over in the case of a no vote and, with no electable Labour party will introduce policies further to the right. Unfair dismissal legislation may well be repealed.Even the present administration have considered doing that. A vote to leave is a vote for a big lurch to the right in who holds the power in the present government.

[pwa]

Pete75, sadly I share your dismal expectations for the Labour Party. But I think it is up to the UK to deal with problems with UK government. And an exit from the EU will take several years to bring about, by which time Labour may have put something nasty in Corbyn's Horlicks. Maybe I'm a dreamer .......

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
I admit and you can say if you want I am naïve, that at present I am still confused.
Forgive me for not trawling through all 30 pages
So I am a common man and don't have the education of some posters here.
If we leave aside political arguments and go on facts which I don't know because there is no platform I.M.O. to show us facts and a good balance of in vs out.

The media as usual are obsessed with gleefully telling us what the military, big business lobbyist, and Obama thinks
Along with Gov saying they need to listen to Obalma....................do they.........are they so unsure................

I see its just as I predicted that we will vote on our gut instincts based on what political views / friends and family say/think.

Does anyone here really have any information where I can see facts?...................no as it is of course all tied in/up with even more politics.

So I remain confused and very frustrated just like the last general election where I and others voted on gut instinct.........................tel me you voted via information that was balanced, if you can.

Will the vote matter, nobody really knows how it will affect us in general, just like Eurostar profits can sway on the pound and terrorist attacts.
Stock markets sway and fail and so does our pensions.

P.S. I see a poll on what influences your vote a good post, if our posters are honest and will vote even in a lowly CTC poll.

[AlaninWales]

Just picked up The Guardian,and which support IN I believe.

Reports page 7 that Europe is secretly negotiating for TTIP and which they report Unite says BAD,and I believe Unite. This is the secret deal headed by multi-nationasl wherein through secret legislation multi nationals can start court action against countries/ laws that work against the said multi-nationals interests. It's all hush-hush. Everything must be open to competition(I guess excepting loss making stuff,me thinks. We then pick up the bill) RIP NHS,so some say. Both the un/elected elite of Europe seem to be for it. Oh dear. Where's JC on all this? Let the prophet speak! He was agin,norw for,now WHAT?

BBC report on just what is being secretly negotiated by the EU http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36185746.

This is the reason why Obama wants us to remain in EU.

[meic]

To help him crack the EU from within, rather than because the UK would steadfastly stand up for those valuable practices and values that TTIP is seeking to corrode after leaving.

Often faults with the EU like this are portrayed, with the unwritten implication that it will change if we leave.
However that change is not going to happen, or if it does it will as often be in the wrong direction as in the right direction.

[53x13]

France is currently lobbying furiously to have TITP curtailed to the point where it's largely ineffectual in their country. Doubtless other European countries will follow suit. A United Kingdom outside of Europe will embrace the idiocy of TITP and fall like a stone without friend or ally in Europe. Be careful what you wish for...

[Psamathe]

France is currently lobbying furiously to have TITP curtailed to the point where it's largely ineffectual in their country. Doubtless other European countries will follow suit. A United Kingdom outside of Europe will embrace the idiocy of TITP and fall like a stone without friend or ally in Europe. Be careful what you wish for...

I would agree. I'm strongly against what TTIP is reported to be. And I think the best way to stop it for the UK is to stay in the EU. I think the EU will not accept what it is reported has been negotiated. But UK leaves EU and in it's haste for any trade deal it would just sign TTIP (with EU crossed out and replaced by UK). Even without a rush for any trade deals, UK has a long history of giving the US whatever the US wants (as long as there are good photo opportunities and US politicians keep repeating "special relationship").

Ian