EU Ref...I Am Confused..Aren't You...

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
I the last general election I voted with my gut instinct.
Don't all of us.......

I see the same with the EU Ref, why because there is little or no facts given to us on which we can make a choice based on what it will do for us.

I am not that political but live a meagre existence so have a healthy interest in politics, even if I can do little to change anything, just one in millions.

Do you think that your opinion will be changed, swayed or made up by any information that would come in the forthcoming weeks on the run up, or are you thinking like me that you will be disappointed and frustrated yet again with lack of informative information by the media.

My gut says that Cam is trying to be clever and weave some dance hoping that his success with the General will tide him over to win.
And the out groups who have divided will be ineffective because of division, I think will weaken the out.

I see politics as a game they play to drip feed us some crumbs while they face off their egos, we are in the middle getting squashed.
I feel out because I see no measurable gain by being part of the mess that is in Europe, and I don't like all the migration to our island, the only sway to thinking in is if we on the ground gain something that is valuable and is guaranteed, which we would definitely lose in an out.

I would like to see a scale which the two options measure against each other so even the thicko's amongst us can vote for a value that we prefer.

So the question is not in or out but do you feel you will vote gut instinct or do you see what I can not

[Mick F]

I will be voting for OUT.

IMHO the British people have never felt European. Most people in Continental Europe feel European, but we Brits generally don't.

I was against joining the Common Market in the first place, and I voted OUT back in 1975.

I still feel the same.

OUT as soon as possible.

[landsurfer]

I am MD of an international railway engineering company.
Staying in the EU or leaving will have no effect on my business ... none... the operators of railway vehicles throughout Europe ( and the USA, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Japan ) will still need the components and services we provide whether we are in or out.
I'm voting out.
My business will continue but we will have control of our borders...

[tyreon]

I will vote for my class,for myself,and what remains of green England. I can see the magnetism of the UK,but want managed immigration. I want OUT.

Last night listened to World Service,reports on the 'caged accommodation' being the only accommodation being offered to Hong Kongers who could not afford anything else. London soon?(and why shouldn't it be?) Before that I'd seen the towns around Sports Direct in north Nottinghamshire,their houses broken into houses of multiple occupancy,towns overwhelmed with (foreign) workers...the place(s) eyesores. ("Come friendly bombers...")

UK home to battery farming: with chickens,houses,farm animals and now humans. Roads,in-building,schools,supermarkets,+roads,industry,++ roads,more houses++++++

On the plus side: we have St. Bob, CofE,Eton actors...further examples on application

[pwa]

I will be voting out, reluctantly. The key issue for me is migration and its effect on population. If the EU showed any sign of trying to deal with that issue I would vote to stay in. So I'm not confused.

Over the next few months we will be told why the world will end if we leave, and all of it will be daft nonsense. It is in everyone's interest to make sure that trade continues at or above present levels and that cooperation continues on issues to do with security and defence. The EU and a detached UK will have to establish a friendly, cooperative approach to things. The Germans still need to sell us BMWs and the French still need to sell us fruit and veg. Surprisingly little will change.

I have no idea what the result of the referendum will be. Recent polls have suggested it is very close. I will be a bit depressed if we are still in the EU after June.

(Guardian reading non-UKIP voter)

[Si]

It's like voting on the CTC becoming a charity - if we vote to stay as we were then we more or less stay as we were but have the option to vote to become a charity later if we feel it will benefit us.

If we vote for change then we cast our selves into the great unknown and there is no going back.

Things may get better or they may get ten worse if we vote for change....do you feel lucky, punk?

[beardy]

I see the same with the EU Ref, why because there is little or no facts given to us on which we can make a choice based on what it will do for us.

You say this and then go on to play their game by discussing the intrigue of the game players, rather than discussing those issues.
It appears from the radio broadcasts entering my house, that this referendum will not be decided by the public assessing the issues but by them blindly following the celebrities who they like. At the moment it is all about recruiting celebs and nothing about issues.

I dont see a doom scenario, either way. It is just a choice in life, like any other, it will not make that big a difference, two ever so slightly different paths into the future, both unknown.
This may be why the facts are so short on the ground, because firstly the future is an unknown and secondly, it will make surprisingly little difference.
Remember the Conservatives were careful to "opt out" of the European social protections for the people of the UK a long time ago.

[Tangled Metal]

The whole thing is about scaring people without providing evidence to back up each side's assertions. If I said leaving the EU will result in the earth opening up and swallowing us, would you believe that? Both sides are spouting the same sorts of unbelievable rubbish as I've just come up with.

So I say give me evidence to support your arguments. If you don't I'll vote in because quite simply it's the status quo and I do not think it's that bad.

BTW migration is an interesting point I'd like answers about. I can see the benefit of controlling your own borders but how? Shrinking border agency can't even cope with the current situation at times so good luck controlling borders with them. Also, what system would you go for? Checking papers at entry points? Visas applied for in country of origin? All cost to set up again.

One last thing, before the EU system we had a policy of visas for most countries where there was an economic pressure to come over here. Other places you could travel from without visas but get the right papers on arrival. Countries like USA, Canada fit into that, but do you not think Germany, France and other western European nations also meet those criteria too? The only nations to be affected within Europe will be the eastern European nations and perhaps Greece, Spain and Portugal. Not a really big change I reckon.

BTW I wish there was a good reason to vote either way but there isn't IMHO so it's down to individual choice. Financially I doubt anyone will be better off one way or the other. I just don't like the idea of voting for the unknown. By this I mean we're being asked to decide on something without good information to base the decision on. To me that is 100% wrong. My idea would be for some independent national body to get the nation's questions, then they go away to research the answer. Only when all the questions and answers are made public can the referendum happen. Until then all talk of the matter is banned on national media. Get the answers instead of political spin. Mind you would that alter views? I reckon some on both sides would say day is night to win. Can't trust anyone involved in the campaign IMHO so take the information to an independent fact checking body to shut the liars up.

[geocycle]

I'm undecided. Cameron and May or Gove and Farage, what a choice! My main concerns are (a) huge amount of development funding comes from Europe to N England which the tories would be unlikely to replace (b) the government are likely to conveniently forget important environment and food legislation that needs international support (c) the science budget on which I depend gets a huge amount from Europe that would have to be made up.

[Audax67]

Well, bizarre that the US is so keen on the UK staying in the EU. Rightly they want a strong united Europe...

Actually, they don't. They want a pliable Europe, with the UK as an easy access point, Ireland being the other. One of the reasons they encouraged the EU to accept the former Iron Curtain countries might have been to keep them out of Russia's reach, but the other was to load a strong and viable EU with dead weight. In that, they largely succeeded.

Personally, after 40+ years of living in France but remaining British, I am applying for dual French/British nationality. I'll not let oiks such as Cameron and Boris queer my pitch for the sake of promises made solely with the aim of winning an election. Cameron may favour staying in but the promise of a referendum was made with the object of pandering to the right wing to keep his job, and if the referendum goes against him the egg on his face will be from his own breakfast. As for Boris, I wish you joy of him. At least he's funny at times.

[661-Pete]

No-brainer. I shall vote for whichever option the Daily Fail tells its readers not to vote for. Sorted....

[beardy]

We already know "the score" if we remain. We can travel and work around the EU without having to ask permission and we have a reciprocal Health agreement with our EHIC cards.
We just dont know what will be arranged if we leave. We could easily arrange for such things to continue or to cease.
There is a very strong implication from the Out camp that all the benefits will remain and all the liabilities will cease. So we will be free to travel as before but they will not. There is a sort of precedent for that, the rich Western nations do have such an unbalanced relationship with the poorer nations. I can easily enter Uganda but Ugandans have much more difficulty visiting the UK.

The In camp suggest all the benefits will disappear and the drawbacks remain.

The In camp can almost speak with one voice because the EU and our part in it is already fairly well defined. The outcamp speak with many different voices because they have different reasons for wanting out. The person on the street may be thinking that if they get rid of the other EU nationals competing for their jobs and benefits they will be better off but IDS wants us out so he can cut the standard of living of such people more than the EU would currently allow!

You can rest assured that Farage's vision of UK outside of the EU was nothing like Corbyn's vision (prior to his pro-EU conversion).

[pwa]

The whole thing is about scaring people without providing evidence to back up each side's assertions. If I said leaving the EU will result in the earth opening up and swallowing us, would you believe that? Both sides are spouting the same sorts of unbelievable rubbish as I've just come up with.

So I say give me evidence to support your arguments. If you don't I'll vote in because quite simply it's the status quo and I do not think it's that bad.

BTW migration is an interesting point I'd like answers about. I can see the benefit of controlling your own borders but how? Shrinking border agency can't even cope with the current situation at times so good luck controlling borders with them. Also, what system would you go for? Checking papers at entry points? Visas applied for in country of origin? All cost to set up again.

One last thing, before the EU system we had a policy of visas for most countries where there was an economic pressure to come over here. Other places you could travel from without visas but get the right papers on arrival. Countries like USA, Canada fit into that, but do you not think Germany, France and other western European nations also meet those criteria too? The only nations to be affected within Europe will be the eastern European nations and perhaps Greece, Spain and Portugal. Not a really big change I reckon.

BTW I wish there was a good reason to vote either way but there isn't IMHO so it's down to individual choice. Financially I doubt anyone will be better off one way or the other. I just don't like the idea of voting for the unknown. By this I mean we're being asked to decide on something without good information to base the decision on. To me that is 100% wrong. My idea would be for some independent national body to get the nation's questions, then they go away to research the answer. Only when all the questions and answers are made public can the referendum happen. Until then all talk of the matter is banned on national media. Get the answers instead of political spin. Mind you would that alter views? I reckon some on both sides would say day is night to win. Can't trust anyone involved in the campaign IMHO so take the information to an independent fact checking body to shut the liars up.

Just to answer the question of how leaving the EU would allow us to control migration, in a practical nuts and bolts way, the solution is work permits. We have no need to control EU citizens visiting unless they are intending to stay. And that mostly means staying to work here. We need to control that. A system of work permits will address that. It will have to be agreed with the EU and work in both directions. Checks would be done at the work place, not the port of entry.

[kwackers]

I'm voting in.
I've seen nothing from the out camp other than rhetoric and emotional string pulling of the "nasty foreigners telling us brits what to do" sort of nonsense.
The EU has faults but it's given us a lot of good things too and more importantly we already know where we stand.

In all honesty though if we left I doubt it'd make a huge difference. I reckon it's all swings and roundabouts. Food prices may increase, afaik they're fairly well subsidised and we import a lot of them.
Some good things are the government can finally stop worrying about labour laws, we opt out of as many as possible anyway so no longer will the working classes have to worry about the EU putting the brakes on our return to the hay days of Victorian work houses.
Nor will we have to worry about pollution, we'll be able to safely ignore EU directives on environmental issues and stop paying the fines too! Happy days...

However can we really escape Europe? I think anyone that says so is disillusional, perhaps 30 years ago it may have been possible. But when you want to trade with a superpower you don't really get to call the shots. The trade agreements are likely not to be in our favour and a lot of the conditions attached will be the same as we have now, they won't allow us to unfairly compete against their own manufacturers/service providers and if anything protectionism will work in their favour.
If nothing else staying in gives us a say in those conditions and the same terms as everyone else.

[[XAP]Bob]

I presume ref means there is likely to be referendum soon?

I've not heard anything about it yet...